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  #81  
Old 06-21-2016, 05:22 PM
deanrichard deanrichard is offline
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Default Re: Pro Tools 12 vs Studio One 3 vs Logic Pro X

I don't it's a good idea to put much stock in any app's CPU meter. As I said, I wasn't very scientific in my test, but each of the apps I tried would read maybe 60-70% for a while, and then CPU would spike up to cause the audio to break up and the system to slow down. They couldn't handle the load at some point.

But Reaper played back OK when running 22 instances of that heavy plugin. The others failed with about half that load.

Quote:
Originally Posted by propower View Post
I tested Reaper on my MacPro with a single track and Abbey Road Plate on an aux. CPU load was tiny at 96kHz 32buffer. Tiny - way less than 10%. No spikes or Red at all. Problem is - clicks and pops everywhere. Raise buffer to 64 and they were gone. CPU meter barely budged. Do the same in Logic or S1 and the CPU meter is pegged at 96k 32 buffer. Clicks and pops. Change to 64, CPU at 60% but no more pops and clicks.

Morale for me .... I don't put any stock in Reapers CPU meter.
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  #82  
Old 06-22-2016, 03:31 AM
DDDaniel DDDaniel is offline
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Default Re: Pro Tools 12 vs Studio One 3 vs Logic Pro X

I don't think it is right to judge the quality of a DAW just by checking how many plugins it can run at a certain buffer size. There is more that counts. One of them is timing accuracy. I have been working with Logic since v1.2, as well as with PT since V3.
A couple of years ago I had an issue with Logic that made me turn away from this program. This was with Logic 9.1
We were working on a combined midi and audio project and midi was arranged in Logic, but the editor kept on complaining that the timing didn't feel right.
At some point we decided to do some tests.
What we did is place quarter note midi events and send those to an internal synth, to an external synth, and recorded both the internal and external synth together with a quarter note click track on a bunch of audio tracks. (the internal synth was recorded through the audio interface, not through a buss. So it was sent to an analogue out, and that out was recorded through an audio input, same for the metronome)
Then we compared the timing of all these events (which ideally should all align exactly on the beat) by zooming in and comparing if the start of all these events were the same.
We did the same test with PT and Logic.
The outcome was quite shocking: in Logic, depending on the audio interface and buffer size used, the events would move in time.
So if I would record one track with a buffer of 512 and then another track with a buffer of 128 these events would all have a different offset compared the the beat.
And even worse, this offset wasn't consistent. The 1st beat might be 10ms off, the second 2ms, and the third one 16ms. (sorry, I do not have the actual numbers here anymore) When you would change the buffer size all these numbers would change, and it could both be early or late.

We tried it with built in audio and several interfaces. Some interfaces worked quite well with minimal time shifts, others were scary off.
So if you do these tests you might discover that your interface works ok. (from the top of my head Apogee Symphony was the best, a system with RME PCIe cards the worst)

We then did the same test with PT with the same interfaces. PT was not always right, but was always consistent, and it didn't change when the buffer changed.

We were so shocked that we created a whole report with pictures, tables and everything, and sent it to Apple's bug reports dep. We got an answer that 'we are aware of this problem' but never heard anything else about it.

I tried to find the actual report, but I don't seem to have it anymore. Because the description above is from what I remember, in the report we had the actual test setups and all latencies/offsets in ms.

One partial explanation is that Logic 9 (as far as I know this hasn't changed in X) midi resolution is still based on (from the top of my head again) 768 ticks/quarter note, while PT and a lot of other programs use sample accurate midi timing.

When Logic X came out I checked the readme, but they didn't mention anything about 'improved timing' or so, so I decided that's it.

Another dreadful experience with Logic I had was when I had to mix a surround project in Logic which was a complex project with a lot of sub mixes from different places, 100's of audio files in several folders/drives, etc. We had so many file related and surround bussing problems that my conclusion is that Logic might be great for some midi stuff and basic audio work, but when it comes to more complex and critical work it is a no go.
When Logic X came out I hoped they had improved, but Apple is much more focussed on selling loads of copies together with their Macs, than a 'pro' program. At least that is my impression.

I am not saying Logic is unusable, I work with many people who (partially) use Logic, but if you want to compare programs then there is more than 'how much plugins can it run'.

And these are examples where PT is performing much better and reliable.

Having said that I regret to say that PT is becoming more and more like an old French car; a great drive when it works, but half of the time it asks you to check the oil or other mysterious things happen. For my work I will always need to use PT because it is a standard, but I am trying Reaper now, and although it has some quirks, I must say it is quite impressive. (but I haven''t done the timing tests yet ;-)
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  #83  
Old 12-17-2016, 10:15 AM
rawboogie rawboogie is offline
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Default Re: Pro Tools 12 vs Studio One 3 vs Logic Pro X

I know what to do - rewire Ableton with pro tool all the quality of pt without any of the errors, plus Ableton loop functionality.. ugh!
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  #84  
Old 12-17-2016, 10:32 AM
Brandonx1 Brandonx1 is offline
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Default Re: Pro Tools 12 vs Studio One 3 vs Logic Pro X

Logic and s1 don't report errors the same way pro tools does. They will just drop samples. Pro tools stops with an error. You can go into the pro tools playback engine and trunk off cpu error reporting and run at lower buffers but you don't get to know when you dropped samples.. Not pro
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  #85  
Old 12-19-2016, 10:07 AM
Alexrkstr Alexrkstr is offline
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Default Re: Pro Tools 12 vs Studio One 3 vs Logic Pro X

I know this topic is about a year+ old, but rather than opening a new thread, I thought I'd post here.

I've been using ProTools for almost 10 years, but decided to give Logic Pro X a shot. I am rather impressed with how easy it is to navigate the application, how fast everything seems to flow, how user-friendly it is, and more importantly - how easy it is to just record and manipulate different ideas. For example, just switching between instruments is a breeze - they are clearly laid out and you can easily toggle or find the one(s) that you want. The virtual amp selection is fantastic (if I want to record my amp later, I can mic it, but this is amazing to just put down an idea). I have to say, I will probably be switching over to Logic. Now I just need to figure out the process...
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  #86  
Old 02-19-2017, 05:22 PM
lonehunterband lonehunterband is offline
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Default Re: Pro Tools 12 vs Studio One 3 vs Logic Pro X

To me Studio One hands down.

Enviado de meu SM-G935F usando Tapatalk
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  #87  
Old 09-13-2018, 01:42 AM
Jeezer Jeezer is offline
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Default Re: Pro Tools 12 vs Studio One 3 vs Logic Pro X

I've used both Studio One (V2 and V3 and tried V4) and PT (various but mostly 12 HD which I love) extensively.

Pro Tools is still beautiful to work with, all things considered, because where it excells is in FAR MORE important, every day and constant use areas vs the 'niceties' of S1 (ie. drag drop plugs from browser, autosetup of fx sends/busses.. folder tracks).. all nice stuff sure but hardly 'hard' to do in PT either (esp as you usually have it all ready to rock in a template anyway so - non issue). Folder tracks are overrated, you spend more time opening/closing than working, and you can seperate groups of tracks in PT with a group (aux) track set above that section of tracks with the same colour as all groups. Very fast to visualise, just like folder tracks, but much more useful as they are actual tracks (with plugs and a purpose).. then use VCAs down the bottom, together, to control overall stuff like solo/mutes/vols.. all of this also works wonderfully from the ICON D-Command, presonus controllers don't even come close.

so all that in PT's favour already, then we hit the main parts... MIXING and AUDIO EDITING. PT is light years ahead of EVERY DAW inc S1 in this respect. It's all shown on screen in the edit window, no need for the mix window, all inserts/sends, so easy to work with and get the overview you need, and with key modifier mouse clicks you can do all the usual multi bypass, inserts, deletes and the slot format works out much better and more logical than the flexible 'insert bins' in S1 (which seem cool at first as unlimited but get messy). The S1 mixer is a total JOKE... you HAVE to open it to mix properly as the edit screen only has the left side info pane for one track at once, you get no real info without clicking through each track to show up in the left info pane, so you open the S1 mixer and it's left/right scroll city to even try to see what's on your entire project plugs wise (narrow view is useless too as it hides everything!). Really REALLY stupid of presonus, and after 3 years of using studio one and being one of the original fans I've since come to realise the hype wasn't justified. Just because it does some things well, drag n drop etc, it lacks in many other areas, and PT caught up by 12 HD anyway with much better versions of things like commit, track freeze etc,, these are pure art in PT... the freeze/unfreeze or 'freeze up to' just a specific insert are elegant, simple, fun and obvious. You can reload a project a year later and see instantly what is frozen, and unfreeze with one click (no menus). I love it.

In s1? well you have to basically 'guess' which tracks you transformed to audio, or leave those ugly midi lines on, or if was rendered audio with plugs.. you basically have NO CLUE at all that you've embedded plugs and you can 'revert' to previous audio without RIGHT CLICKING and hunting the menu for 'transform to realtime audio' (even though it is realtime audio) very messy, very badly thought out. This was an early boon of S1, so we thought, the drag drop of vsti to audio track = auto convert, and embedding plugs etc, yes it does it but it turns out it's really stupid way and very very amateur vs how Pro Tools (eventually) handled it. Avid just do the most beautiful implementations of features even if it takes them longer to implement them. Comit, bounce, freeze, even bouncing through hardware is all 100% better in PT than S1 which is barely adequate and very amateur.

So that's mixing and logistics in PT.. it absolutely destroys Studio One (and logic and mostly cubase). PT is the king of mixing. Even with just a mouse it's a work of art. With a d-command it's game over! nothing comes close to that combo for a real mix feel and full integration. S1 is now a joke to me for mixing.

Even the previous strength of S1 (quick composition/ideas/demoing) has since waned for me as if I'm mixing in PT i'd rather just create there too, and recording.. well recording ALSO is just rock solid in PT, it has your back, it lets you know if something's wrong, it STOPS recording if it's going to record errors/clicks etc. AWESOME. S1? WoW.. what a mess! I've recorded multi takes in S1 in past versions, only to find the takes missing, or chopped off (this bug was fixed but took many versions to fix and was a nightmare). Also it WILL record glitches and clicks if your comp is chugging along. What some see as PT being a bit fussy (CPU error pop up) is safeguarding you from wasting time on bad takes. again I LOVE IT. Nothing comes close.

Also PT seems to record rock solid in sync and I prefer the playlist system to S1's layers. Because the power of grouping, clip groups and playlists selecting is far more robust/pro and inspiring in PT. To know this you'd have to work properly with PT for a while to 'get' why PT 12 HD and onwards are so awesome.

Then there's audio editing, and general clip handling... wow.. PT is again the best on earth, S1 is like a toy here. The more I used PT 12 HD the more I realised we'd been conned by S1! Instant waveform editing in PT with the pencil tool, zooming right down to the smooth sample level and drawing over clicks etc... in S1? forget it.. nasty looking aliased GFX waveforms with no proper zooming right down (seperate audio editor which also sucks vs pro tools in place editing and smooth visuals). All those cool things you can do with shortcuts like paste clip to current cursor, clip groups (awesome when you know how/why), dynamic clip gain (drawing the envs on the clip rather than just a static clip volume in S1!), this last feature alone is worth using PT over S1.. it's a joke that S1 that brags about workflow has only static clip gain!! I used to chop a clip up then adjust the gain, then add fades then rebounce... what a mess! in PT you just literally draw/edit what you want.. no messing.. .perfect.. again I LOVE IT. Avid showed how clip gain SHOULD be done, even if once again they took longer to implement it. When they do, they do it RIGHT.

Visually too PT is very easy on the eye and the colour selections, waveforms and smooth, 'happy' gfx are a pleasure to work with on long edit sessions. S1 is a dark depressing place with (even more in V4 now) AWFUL colours for tracks/clips, really garish, no matter how you adjust the GUI settings. While the dark look itself is fine and maybe PT could take a hint too, the rest.. is a cluttered mess vs PT's analog desk/tape machine like purity of that edit screen.

Anyone who uses both of these DAWS heavily, as I have for years, and isn't thinking of some old nerfed version of PT (must be at least 12 HD as that has the top features now) will see just how much better and slicker PT is for recording, editing and mixing.. the THREE main facets of a DAW. And I even prefer the midi editing in PT, again much more 'big picture' overview stuff with the edit screen and midi editors just working so slickly. Comitting to audio , or through hardware has always been rock solid. S1 has timing errors after bounces etc and is basically a mess, I can't trust it any more.

So why does S1 still score points? well it's for really dumb reasons it turns out... things that instantly 'wow' you from a logistics POV like drag/drop instead of menus, routing auto set, FX send auto.. these things are 'nice'.. just nice only, not essential at all.. and other than that there's not a whole lot else it does better and many things, as above, far far worse for real editing and mixing.

The arranger track is nice, but you can do much the same in PT with the markers and some key combos to actually ripple edit sections out or move them, so you have a kind of arranger already in PT anyway, just not quite as obvious or easy at first.

Groups are also far more powerful in PT. HEAT is nicer than console shaper (which can often sound a bit phasey or harsh... while HEAT just adds mojo!).

All in all if PT 12 HD (or Ultimate 2018) = 10/10 I could seriously only give studio one a 5/10 (and logic would get 3/10 - awful mixing AND editing -... cubase maybe 4 - 7 depending on version and needs.. and reaper's a mess... more like a geeky hobby project than a productive DAW!).

S1 is pretty good if you never compare fully with PT, but once you do there's no going back to S1. S1 needs a LOT of work to come even close to the beauty elegance and REAL everyday 'slick workflow' that PT has, that S1 pretends/advertises it has. S1 only felt amazing after battling with Cubase for years but PT destroys them both.

A long essay but it helps me get my own thinking clear too as to why I continue to pay for expensive PT and ICON even though I could cash out and go full time S1... PT is just too good, it's not hype, it's not 'just cos industry standard' or 'been around years' it IS seriously the best for recording, editing and mixing. No question.

And imo a LOT of people go try other DAWS and are initially attracted by the newness/change and some modern additions vs PT and have a honeymoon period with it. Many of them come back to PT once they realise how much these other daws lack under the bonnet (not always in features but in how they work, how they do things and the real workflow beyond the glossy mouse based bullet points of newer DAWS). That said, most of them really DO lack a ton of stuff in the key areas of mixing and audio editing vs PT, people assume they don't as they've never tried PT HD, or based on some really old version. All of the above and I never even mentioned how the automation features and handling in PT are leagues ahead of anything else out there, beyond expectations, beyond easy/fun to use and inspiring to work with. And Avid still have the only control surface integration with their DAW that feels like a complete system (thanks to the DAW being amazing at mixing/recording and the controller - D-Command/Control and S6) being supremely well thought out and integrated unlike any other combo on the market (inc yamaha nuage + nuendo/cubase because the DAWs lack and the hardware isn't as well thought out).

As said - PT 10/10 even with its few minor idiosyncrasies and tiny flaws. No other DAW comes close.
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Last edited by Jeezer; 09-13-2018 at 01:52 AM.
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  #88  
Old 09-13-2018, 01:46 AM
Jeezer Jeezer is offline
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Default Re: Pro Tools 12 vs Studio One 3 vs Logic Pro X

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandonx1 View Post
Logic and s1 don't report errors the same way pro tools does. They will just drop samples. Pro tools stops with an error. You can go into the pro tools playback engine and trunk off cpu error reporting and run at lower buffers but you don't get to know when you dropped samples.. Not pro
Exactly.

S1 and others are not handling audio anything like as robustly as PT does. As I mentioned in my essay above, if PT stops recording it's for a good reason usually. In S1 it'll record glitches, pops, clicks and even NOT record entire takes and you'll not find out until you playback.

PT feels and acts rock solid, looks it too.
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