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  #21  
Old 08-07-2004, 11:51 AM
The Eggman The Eggman is offline
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Default Re: Still sucks?

Quote:
If you take in account that the SSL is a "real" desk and has real "analog DSP" power just scale down a 72 channel SSL desk to 16 channels and compare it with the Icon.

If you are lucky it´s 2:1. That is absolutely ridiculous.
Or do you really think a plastic remote is worth half the price of a SSL mixing tank?

Cheers Wolfgang
Wolfgang,

Oktoberfest starting early this year? Check your math...

80 channel icon = $180k full price
Add $2500.00/channel for audio facilities ($2500.00 is a LOT of money per channel)
Total = $380,000.00

That's HALF the price of the outdated, no automation except on faders and button pushes, only TOTAL RECALL SSL desk.

Sorry, Wolfie...you lose this round.

What's your next point?
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  #22  
Old 08-07-2004, 12:53 PM
Henchman Henchman is offline
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Default Re: weight and heft.

Quote:



Why is this so diificult for so many posters here to understand - Icon has the same basic blocks as all of these consoles. Does it not qualify because it has a built in recorder/editor which can be controlled by a mouse ? D-control is the surface part, Icon is the whole console.

And since when was console weight a factor in how good a console is to mix on.

Client says..."Hey, Mr Studio owner, I'd like to book your big analog room for a fully automated 5.1 surround mix on tuesday"
Studio owner replies.."We'll its not really fully automated except of course for the faders and mutes, but hey its very very heavy, you can even sit on the palm rest"

click
No, it's not the same. The prooblem is the clunky sofwtare underneith it all. The Pro-Tools software.

It's way faster to configure busses, inputs and outputs etc on a System 5 than on Pro-tools. And that is a fact.
When I add another 24 channels, it won't sit there reshuffling DSP resources and coem back with a "not enough DSP" message. Ever.
And I can still use plug-ins from pro-tools if I want.

The Icon is not a console. It does not have separate dedicated automation. Or does it?.
I don't have to worry about all the little BS stuff like having enough DSP when in the middle of a mix I want to add a compressor, gate, filter or trim a to channel.
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  #23  
Old 08-07-2004, 12:55 PM
Henchman Henchman is offline
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Default Re: Still sucks?

Quote:


Wolfgang,

Oktoberfest starting early this year? Check your math...

80 channel icon = $180k full price
Add $2500.00/channel for audio facilities ($2500.00 is a LOT of money per channel)
Total = $380,000.00

That's HALF the price of the outdated, no automation except on faders and button pushes, only TOTAL RECALL SSL desk.

Sorry, Wolfie...you lose this round.

What's your next point?
Does that include the massive amounts of DSP Farm cards needed as well as the expansion chhassis.

me for that kind of money, I'll get a real console with MADI inputs and run whatever DAW suits me.

the PT UI still sucks, IMO.
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  #24  
Old 08-07-2004, 05:45 PM
filmixer filmixer is offline
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Default Re: Still sucks?

Hi.
Just thought I might chime in on this very lively discussion. There's a lot of pricing of the systems being discussed that I think are incorrect in the current market. You can get a SSL 4k w/ 72 inputs 3-5 years old in great condition for $100K or less. You can get a SSL 9k that's almost new from a victim of the current state of the music business for less than $200k. Manufacturers of high end consoles both analog and digital are making killer lease deals to keep product moving. In a music scenario where you need a lot of mic pre amps and are dealing with alot of analog source material and vintage processing, an analog console makes sense even though almost all of the recording and editing work is done in some type of digital workstation. You know, not everyone is using Pro Tools. There are alot of Nuendo, DP, Logic etc.. users that like those work flows better. One big advantage of a large format console (analog or digital) is that you can mix and match work flows. I use a Euphonix System 5 for Re-recording and sometimes there are as many as 4-5 different systems during a final mix. They can be any combination of types of systems and it doesn't matter to me, my interface is always the same. In my world, if I didn't have 100% automation and instant reset I'd have to kill myself, but music is less demanding as far as track count and layouts are concerned. It's apples and oranges really. The ICON is great if you only work in Pro Tools, and I do mix "In the box" sometimes and it has it's advantages, but for large scale projects sometimes more capability and flexibility is needed. Cheers.
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  #25  
Old 08-07-2004, 06:50 PM
johnnyv johnnyv is offline
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Default Re: Still sucks?

Quote:
Hi.
Just thought I might chime in on this very lively discussion. There's a lot of pricing of the systems being discussed that I think are incorrect in the current market. You can get a SSL 4k w/ 72 inputs 3-5 years old in great condition for $100K or less. You can get a SSL 9k that's almost new from a victim of the current state of the music business for less than $200k.
Filmmixer,

I've been watching this lively thread for a while, too. I pretty much agree with your post. However, I thought I'd point one thing out. in a backhanded sort of way, here's something interesting about your post.

You're right that you can get a 4k w/72, etc for cheap. Basically any analog large frame desk ever made can be had for really good prices right now. BUT, that fact in a way kills the argument that a large frame analog desk was a good investment for studios at least for the last 3 years or so or that analog gear "holds it value much more than digital". I think you meant to point out that analog is a good option because it can be had at great prices right now, but imagine the guy who paid $500,000 for that SSL 9k which is now worth $200,000 (your number). yes, that desk might only be 3 years old and the guy who originally bought it might still owe more than it's worth. That type of bloodbath puts businesses right out of the game. Even buying an SSL 9k for $200,000 (again, your number) and 12-18 months later, finding it to be worth $100,000.00 might be enough to sink the ship. The cool thing about all the digital technologies is that their overall price point is getting low enough (even a $60k Icon) that investing in them isn't going to put any studios out of business. and we all benefit too because both analog and digital just keeps getting CHEAPER. gotta luv it.

j
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  #26  
Old 08-07-2004, 07:18 PM
grivel grivel is offline
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Default Technical

Henchman give it up,

It's impossible to convince or explain something out of the pro tools box to people that are trained on 1 box, know 1 thing, and they see the world in this 1 box.

It's impossible.

You do have many valid points.
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  #27  
Old 08-07-2004, 07:20 PM
Blake A Blake A is offline
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Default Re: weight and heft.

Quote:
No, it's not the same. The prooblem is the clunky sofwtare underneith it all. The Pro-Tools software.

It's way faster to configure busses, inputs and outputs etc on a System 5 than on Pro-tools. And that is a fact.
When I add another 24 channels, it won't sit there reshuffling DSP resources and coem back with a "not enough DSP" message. Ever.
And I can still use plug-ins from pro-tools if I want.

Henchman,

I totally agree with you, the System 5 is a great console, no doubt, but what your saying is just not true. Hve you actually seen a demo of Icon?
The process of configuring mix buses on System 5 and Icon is almost identical when you compare Mixviews bus config page and the Pro Tools bus page in I/O setups.
Assigning channels to mix stems is done from the surface in both cases. But you can also assign to hardware inserts and converter outputs from the surface with Icon whereas you need to do that from a Mixview router screen on your S-5 - correct ?

As to your other point, if you buy a large enough HD Accel system you will it will have no problem matching the channel architecture of your S-5 ie Gate/compressor and a four band Eq with 2 filters and a single insert point without it breaking a sweat or giving you a "not enough DSP" error or shuffling DSP. But guess what, I have two more inserts available on Icon so I can add more processing to the channels like convolution reverbs, de-essers, graphics EQ's for the dialog and adjusting all this extra stuff from the knobs and even motorized faders on the Icon. Meanwhile your automating half your stuff on the console and the other half in Pro Tools using a mouse because your console doesn't have the specialty processing stuff. And when I'm done, everything is neatly saved in one session file while you are saving half your stuff to the consoles hard drive and the rest to the pro tools session. My file can go back to editorial with everything I did intact, your session goes back without any of the automation you did on the console.

If the project starts and ends in one room I guess its kind of OK having your files all over the place, but thats not the case in all markets/projects. In music, it might go back to the producers project studio or another commercial facility for overdubs and you know he's going to love being able to open everything he just did in the studio on his desktop PT system wherever that is.

You mentioned in another post that you like having a separate console and a workstation but surely you agree it would be better if all your audio and automation were in one file, controlled from one surface or the desktop- regardless of whether that system is an Icon/Pro Tools?

Blake
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  #28  
Old 08-07-2004, 07:24 PM
filmixer filmixer is offline
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Default Re: Still sucks?

Hi,
A business usually depreciates equipment (like a console) down to $0.00 in 5 years. It's a little more complicated than just, "I bought it for $500k and now its worth $200k". You will be taxed on the gain if you sell something for $100k that you depreciated to zero. Trust me, digital gear loses it's value just as fast if not faster that other types of gear. You also have to take in to account the money you made with the gear to as to how profitable a purchase was. I just wanted to bring the true prices of the equipment being discussed into the picture. I'm sure we will be seeing used Icons in a couple of years for a lot cheaper that they are now. You can be sure of that.
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  #29  
Old 08-07-2004, 07:36 PM
grivel grivel is offline
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Default LARGE format

Filmixer, you've hit the nail on the head. FLEXIBILITY IS THE NAME OF THE GAME NOW.

I'm not sure why people on this board are even discussing the ICON as being a replacement for the standard enterprise grade consoles used in post. It's a retarted comparison. A waste of time.

REGARDLESS if you think the ICON can imitate the 'big beasts', it cannot and will not replace it. There are business reasons why corporations purchase this grade of equipment:

1. Reliability
2. High barriers to Entry - [dominance of the market place to compete with only other corporations on their level - mixing projects of a certain budget range]
3. Flexibility

Point 3., this is very important at the enterprise level. Investing all your money in boat [ICON] is a stupid move that nobody would make. Newer people are coming into the game now, and large facilities are in testing phase. The large facilities are seeing the light, that there are other methods to do things now, technically better, more efficient, more cost effective ie. Nuendo 2.0 on WINTEL, Pyramix ... Moving to the ICON would be like stepping backwards in time.

So my point is, I don't know why people even mention products like the DFC or MPC. They are in a whole other world. A world that likes to use a variety of REPRODUCERS or STEM RECORDERS. NOT 1 box. And not bringing other stuff through an AUX just to work with the ICON. Their world is not made to WORK AROUND THE ICON.

Music, that's a whole other story. I have no idea - but it makes total sense to consider analog - it just sounds so nice. Flashing lights don't mean jack...it's the sound that matters.
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  #30  
Old 08-07-2004, 07:59 PM
Henchman Henchman is offline
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Default Re: weight and heft.

Quote:


You mentioned in another post that you like having a separate console and a workstation but surely you agree it would be better if all your audio and automation were in one file, controlled from one surface or the desktop- regardless of whether that system is an Icon/Pro Tools?

Blake
I do agree on this point. However it is the clunky PT software that is still the main issue. I don't know what other DAW's you are familiar with or have worked with. But PT's is still pretty much at the bottom of the list for me personnally.
Even though I use it everyday. But not by choice.
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