LE to HD quality difference

[O.G. Killa]

Originally Posted by LarsB

Look here http://www.blacklionaudio.com/Modifications/Digi+003R;)

Don't bother... before you read that, read this...

http://duc.digidesign.com/showthread...Mod+Experiment

[grendizer]

Thanx to all who replied. I only have a few question's left and i'll write them in a scenario.


I record a guitar track on a HD system. Then I import the track with same bit sample rate to an LE 003 system. Did I lose any quality yet? if not lets keep going.


On the HD system i use Waves TDM plugs to process the guitar track... Now I do the same exact processing on the LE 003 system, but with waves NATIVE plugs, not TDM. Is there a difference in quality?

---------------------

the reason i ask these question's is because upgrading my waves native SSL and diamond bundle to TDM is going to cost me around $3500 bucks. Is it worth it? is there a difference in quality? or is it just a convenience where one is host based processing and the other is internal processing.The thing is I have an $8000 budget to do my entire upgrade, and I might be able to pull it off if it weren't for these waves plugs.

mac pro used $2000
HD1 pcie $4000
I/O 192 used $2000

game over

[Tone]

In terms of sound, we ran tests on this a while back to try to satisfy our own questions. Without going into laborious detail, we concluded that there is absolutely no difference whatsoever in the mix buss between TDM and LE. In HD with all plugs in RTAS mode and with ADC off everything will be 100% the same as in LE. However, obviously there is a difference in the hardware so unless you are using an external AD/DA and outside clock then those factors will come into play. When they finally get around to ADC in LE that will be another factor taken out. There can be a very small difference between TDM and RTAS on a few plugs but that's another long discussion.

On a practical level, there are other issues such as latency to think about which may be a big deal depending on what you are wanting to record.

Honestly, if I was you I would hold off getting an HD rig right at this moment

[BradLyons]

Tone,

I'd be curious as to exactly how this test took place and what you were listening to for the test. There are VERY FEW RTAS plugins that are equal to their TDM counterparts in terms of overall tonal quality. In addition the internal mixbus (summing) is significantly different between the two. Of course there is a big difference between the ADC which is a major difference in the quality of the mix (especially) with larger mixes and sessions.

Aside from this....there are numerous significant differences between LE and HD, however you can absolutely achieve incredible results with a PTLE system providing you have the right gear and tools to compliment it. TO THE ORIGINAL POSTER: Are you mixing professionally? Are you tracking bands or is this just for yourself? WHY do you want PTHD? Are you unhappy with your current sound or are you just seeking to improve it.....

[Drew Mazurek]

Originally Posted by BradLyons

Tone,

I'd be curious as to exactly how this test took place and what you were listening to for the test. There are VERY FEW RTAS plugins that are equal to their TDM counterparts in terms of overall tonal quality.

Nonsense.

http://www.smassey.com/blog.html#28_apr_2009

This has been posted several times.

[grendizer]

Thank you for your reply Tone. Thou, I would like to know why you think I should hold off on buying my rig now. What would you do if you were me and with an $8000 budget?

Dear bradlyons, yes I’m mixing and recording bands constantly in the box. The clients are not really giving me many complaints about the quality either. But I guess to answer your question, I want to upgrade because I think I’m going to be recording for a long time to come.

my current studio looks like this:
G5 ppc
003LE
Universal Audio 2-610 Mic pre
Focusrite OCtopre micpre
Waves diamond and ssl native bundles
Buncha microphones

Question, can I bypass the 003 ADC and use an apogee or some other top end ADC clock and let IT run PTLE for me. If so, whats a good one?

[Tone]

Brad - to answer as brief as I can, we tested PT HD, LE and Logic 8 with a (very simple) mocked up mix containing around 20 tracks using only plug ins we could instantiate across all 3 platforms with ADC turned off (RTAS only on PT and AU in Logic). We copied all levels/pans into Logic and did a BTD in each case. The HD and LE mixes were identical, the only thing that didn't null between the 3 was anything that wasn't panned either hard left, right or central in Logic - this is down to the difference in Logic's pan law (they've since added a flag to alter this). We redid the test with the pans adjusted to make them cancel. As well as nulling - we played each mix through an Apogee DA and had someone switch - no one could tell them apart with the slightest bit of consistency or conviction I understand the differences in the mathematics between TDM and LE summing but as I say we couldn't find anything to separate them sonically.

I gather there are meant to be a few plugs (including some from Waves) that are supposed to be slightly different between TDM and LE but I've never heard anything convincing. (I do still want an AU version of Pheonix though )

I've been mixing ITB on HD since it first appeared and wanted to know if I could get good results in Logic as I needed to take advantage of the efficiency of AU over RTAS (doing a lot of electronic pop with big track counts).

Grendizer - working ITB if you do a BTD there will be absolutely no jitter but a good clock really counts every time you go in or come out of the computer. If I was you I would probably get a decent AD/DA with good clock specs (Apogee/Lavry etc) and a new mac to last well into the future (G5's are already obsolete). If you don't already have the MPTK that is worth having to get you up to 64 tracks - if you have anything left the Waves CLA collection is very nice

[Keybeeetsss]

Originally Posted by dmazurek

Nonsense.

http://www.smassey.com/blog.html#28_apr_2009

This has been posted several times.

exactly!!! Brad I really can't believe u even said that... there are only MAYBE 2 WAVES plugs that don't completely null...thatz it period!!!


If ur not recording more than 18i/o @ a time, then U DO NOT NEED HD; Especially HD1 because in essence u lose way more than u gain... Whats the point using RTAS with HD & u can do that now with LE & plus the 003 & 96i/o has the same components for the most part... I still can not believe u would say TDM plugs sound better but then again, as of late, I've notived u've been posting way more than normal & I was gonna joke that sales must be way down but now I don't kno that I'd be joking about that...

[Vaporhead]

Originally Posted by dmazurek

Nonsense.

http://www.smassey.com/blog.html#28_apr_2009

This has been posted several times.

Yes. Thanks Drew, for debunking the misinformation

[O.G. Killa]

Originally Posted by grendizer

Thank you for your reply Tone. Thou, I would like to know why you think I should hold off on buying my rig now. What would you do if you were me and with an $8000 budget?

Dear bradlyons, yes I’m mixing and recording bands constantly in the box. The clients are not really giving me many complaints about the quality either. But I guess to answer your question, I want to upgrade because I think I’m going to be recording for a long time to come.

my current studio looks like this:
G5 ppc
003LE
Universal Audio 2-610 Mic pre
Focusrite OCtopre micpre
Waves diamond and ssl native bundles
Buncha microphones

Question, can I bypass the 003 ADC and use an apogee or some other top end ADC clock and let IT run PTLE for me. If so, whats a good one?

If you are tracking bands constantly, then the no/low latency benefits of PTHD might be something you'd want to consider.

The problem with going HD is you are no longer going to have built in preamps, no monitor control and the wiring scheme is going to be different.

If you are buying completely new, then you'll need a new computer as well since they only sell the PCIe cards now. You can buy old PCI cards to fit in your mac.

A friend of mine has his own studio where he mainly plays and records drums for other people. He was using PTLE and Nuendo for a while but eventually switched over to an HD1 with a 192IO. It was a lot of work, but he is happy with the result now. His main reason for switching, latency and using plugins while tracking with no latency.

If you make your living from this, there are some additional features in PTHD that can make your life easier and make mixing faster. But just know that you will have to get a a monitor controller, and rewire some of your studio to get the HD system installed.

From a sonic perspective, as others have mentioned there is no difference. But because of the feature sets that are different between the two, you will probably find your workflow changes...which can effect the sound you get.

For me, because I'm used to mixing on HD, when I mix in LE it literally takes me 3 times longer. No VCA tracks, no "write to" automation commands, no ADC, and only 32 busses changes the way I have to mix. This slows me down and to some degree effects the final sound of the mix.

There are other little shortcuts in HD that make it quick to setup headphone mixes for example. In HD you can insert output 3-4 (or any analog or digital output or bus) across all the tracks in Pre-fader. Highlight the tracks and then hit Cmd+Opt+H. This brings up a window that will copy pan and volume settings (or automation if you choose) to any send (or sends) you designate on the highlighted tracks.

If you are tracking a large band all at once and have 4 or 5 different headphone mixes, this means you can literally set them up in a matter of seconds. Then tweak them to the players requests as you start playing the session.