Wisdom of going to PT10HD?

[ArKay99]

My current setup is in my sig, but it's a Mac Pro 4.1, not a 3.1, gotta fix that. I'm starting to run out of gas with my native rig if I don't render some tracks, in particular SD2. I use it in 24bit mode and it has a ton of mic sources in it's mixer, so it's pretty CPU intensive. Also my sample buffer size limit is 64. Now, I don't hear it, but I have a hard time playing a relaxed and tight groove when overdubbing. I've found that with ADC, if I delay the overdubbed track the 64 samples, the track 'lay's in' much tighter and I've noticed when editing using elastic audio that I'm almost always, just slightly ahead of the beat...maybe I'm just sensitive to latency...I have tried to use the LLC mode on my MBox 2 Pro, and although it works, it's dry and flat since most of the o'dubbing I go direct, and I prefer to have the tracks uneffected so I have the freedom to treat them however I want in the mix process.

Those are my 2 main problems or issues with my setup which brings me to my question, especially to the users of TDM systems. I've sen on ebay and in the Used Gear forum, HD2 systems in the $2000 to $2500 range and 8x8x8 I/O in the same ballpark. Also, I don't have cash on hand to go to an HDX system at this time and probably don't need all that power as this system is a personal rig. What I'd like to know is what other 'costs' would I be liable for in 'upgrading' and since all my plugin's are either RTAS or AAX and my PT10.2 is not HD would my CPU still be maxing out (anything over 50% average CPU useage and the system just falls over...guessing there are unseen spkies).

How does latency manifest itself on TDM systems? Are there any good drum plug-ins in TDM or AAX format? Am I correct in assuming AAX will work on TDM or Native? I know the RTAS or .dpm plugin's won't, however if using, say TLSpace (RTAS) on an AUX return in a TDM system, how does that work with the latency of the TDM cards, vs the host buffer latency?

The last item is, I'm thinking this TDM setup could be 'traded up' to an HDX system in a year or 2 when HDX is fully supported and the big 'bugs' are worked out, would the 8x8x8 interface be compatible with the newer HDX cards?

[Dism]

Ok, the first thing to know is that PTHD has no effect on VI performance. There are no TDM or AAX-DSP virtual instruments. It's all CPU and memory dependent (mostly because a single VI would eat up voices like nothing else).

This is not a new discussion, and is one of the main factors as to why people have been asking for a 64 bit Pro Tools for so long. Until VIs have more access to memory and resources, they will continue to suffer in performance. That being said... we are nearly 100% guaranteed that Pro Tools 11 will be 64 bit.

Now, as far as latency goes...

Once you're past the tracking phase, there's no reason to keep the buffer at 64, especially if you find you are running out of CPU. After tracking, the buffer size shouldn't have any effect on latency, it really only matters in the input stage. If you bump it up to 512 or 1024, you should have some room to breathe.

For plugins that ARE hosted via DSP, recording latency becomes a non-issue with tracking. You just have to keep in mind which plugins to use. I know TL Space has a TDM version (not sure yet about AAX-DSP), as well as many other reverbs, EQs, comps, etc. It really just comes down to what you want to use, and how much you want to use while recording.

The 8x8x8 should be supported with HDX for a long time. All of the second generation (purple and black) HD boxes are compatible with HDX, and will be through Pro Tools 11. Just keep in mind that all of the previous HD hardware (the blue and grey), as well as the TDM cards will not see support past Pro Tools 10. So, no 64 bit Pro Tools unless you were to upgrade to HDX (or back down to a Native version).

[headsup]

Originally Posted by ArKay99

How does latency manifest itself on TDM systems? Are there any good drum plug-ins in TDM or AAX format? Am I correct in assuming AAX will work on TDM or Native? I know the RTAS or .dpm plugin's won't, however if using, say TLSpace (RTAS) on an AUX return in a TDM system, how does that work with the latency of the TDM cards, vs the host buffer latency?

As already mentioned in the last post, there are hardly any TDM/DSP instruments. But you will find that is NOT a problem:

From observation I am convinced that VI's itself have little latency. The benefit of a TDM/HD system in your case is that you can expect around 30 ms of latency for the audio already after loading VI's . I have my HW buffer set to the lowest 128 samples setting yet I am getting a session latency of 41 ms on a fully loaded VI/TDM plug session. The 10 or so samples are eaten up by TDM plugs i have loaded, comps, eq's and channel strips etc.

This session I am working now has two dozen VI's loaded and the DSP is maxed out yet system does not stutter or anything. Having only worked on a HD rig for last four months I am amazed of how nice is it to work with tiny amounts of latency. I run lots of outboard samplers and synths into the Rig so latency I always had to compensate for one or the other way. with 40 ms's now i hardly notice any latency so do not need worry about compensation.

Watch out as you may not be able to connect 8x8x8 to a now old TDM card. I am glad not having gone down the HD Native route as i like using plugs on the inputs and native plugs have tons more latency than TDM versions of same plugs. If you do not need to record using active plugs it may not be an issue and Native could be the way to go.

[nst7]

A couple of mistakes there:

The new HD IO's DO work with TDM systems.

And Native plugins generally have LESS latency than TDM plugins, not more. The DSP of TDM and HDX systems allow for tracking with low latency, but most native plugins these days have little to no latency, and you can track through them with no problem using a low buffer and decently powerful computer.

[headsup]

Originally Posted by nst7

A couple of mistakes there:

The new HD IO's DO work with TDM systems.

And Native plugins generally have LESS latency than TDM plugins, not more. The DSP of TDM and HDX systems allow for tracking with low latency, but most native plugins these days have little to no latency, and you can track through them with no problem using a low buffer and decently powerful computer.

No info about the 8x8x8 to TDM on avid site, is it officially supported? Which cable to use?

I run TDM plugs and sometimes convert to RTAS, never i have seen a plugin have lower latency than TDM at 128 buffer setting. Would be interested to see an example of TDM having higher latency.

[Dism]

Originally Posted by headsup

No info about the 8x8x8 to TDM on avid site, is it officially supported? Which cable to use?

It has to be supported... It came out before HDX and HD Native. The new boxes come with an adapter for the new cables.

[Craig F]

The new HD interfaces work on the HD cards. Have 2 connected right now.

If you do go with HD cards you ast limited to v10 and can go no higher. So depending on what you need it may be an issue.

RTAS on Aux tracks have about the worst latency but with a reverb just figure it into your pre-delay number

[acmost]

Originally Posted by headsup

This session I am working now has two dozen VI's loaded and the DSP is maxed out yet system does not stutter or anything. Having only worked on a HD rig for last four months I am amazed of how nice is it to work with tiny amounts of latency.

You've got 24 Virtual Instruments loaded in an HD session? Yikes, must be a smoking computer. I can get a few at most before it starts wigging out...that said I'm a fan of HD.

Too bad Avid won't go the distance & figure out how to get the HD cards to work Native so we can stay current with it...but I DIGRESS!

[headsup]

Yes, I have a writing template and its at around 20% cpu on the VIs, my rig is a intel mac pro 8 core. very happy with the setup....

[acmost]

Originally Posted by headsup

Yes, I have a writing template and its at around 20% cpu on the VIs, my rig is a intel mac pro 8 core. very happy with the setup....

Wow, that's impressive. 24 individual channels with 24 separate instances of VIs.

I need a new Mac.