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  #1  
Old 08-10-2002, 02:27 AM
DooDooDoo DooDooDoo is offline
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Default MIDI Timing on PT LE

Hi Folks,

I've been timidly recording in PT LE for a few months and this issue is probably over covered.

For many years, "producing" demos on a DA88 out of a stand alone sequencer (a Korg Trinity) allowed me to perfect my songwriting skills. First arraging on the sequencer, then recording the arrangement on 2 Tracks, doing the guitars & vocals on 6 Tracks and finaly mixing on a Mackie 1604 to DAT via a DBX. The goal was not to final cut my songs (and I gess it is still not) but to be able to expose my work and eventually get a record deal.

I've been on and off with music lately (having to work for living). Now I'm back to make it right.

Anyway, I was under the impression that I had lost the ability to program a streight grove. As a matter of fact, I use a midi express USB (motu) to synch the trinity and a proteus 2K. My set up is pretty small yet clean, organized and up to date. CPU limitation problems on my G4 450 are behind me.

The fact is that yesterday, I was working on my girlfriend synthesizer, helping out with her new song, programing a laidback beat on the sequencer (systematic quantize on all tracks plus one free almost shuffle track), and that "relying on midi machines" feeling was back again.

All this story to say that now I know for sure that it isn't me nor my ears nor some kind of fatigue !!!

I'd be more than interested to find out about any work around; I know about the general midi offset one in the preference menu but the reality is that PT can't handle a certain midi tracks accumulation. Input filtering midi information may facilitate the overall treatment, but that still doesn't reach reasonable satisfaction.

Since 75% of the music produtions is based on computer tech, there must be a practical answer for that. The general tendency seems to be the use a third part software. I'd like to share some advise.

Rémy
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Old 08-10-2002, 04:04 PM
krazee krazee is offline
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Default Re: MIDI Timing on PT LE

i agree with you on the midi timing in pro tools...numerous discussions have been made on this issue...anyway...i stick to my opinion.. midi timing in pro tools is weak...very weak...and this statement is not just mine...a lot of others share my opinion! i've been working with Macs for the last 15 years...everyday...producing is my work...that's what i'm living from. i'm also somebody that does a lot of tech support. currently my hobby is working for a pro audio store as tech support (so i should know something about macs) -)

i've worked with every sequencer out there...
i started on an MPC60 back in the days when this thingy was still brand new. (excellent midi timing by the way)
after that Atari 1040ST, Atari Mega1, Mac Classic, Mac LC, Mac LC 475, PPC7300, G3 beige, G4 400, and now G4 Dual 500,
Worked with Cubase, after that i started with Vision 1 up to the last vision (changed because i found the midi timing not tight!, changed back to cubase because the timing was a lot better, but when i started hard disc recording i found that cubase's audio part sucked (lots of digital cracks and the audio sometimes got out of sync with the midi ????? ) then i started using pro tools for the audio recording because audio recording in PT was flawless. but the midi options in those days were very limited..so i was doomed to sync cubase to PT via IAC bus...worked like that for several years...very time consuming and very annoying since PT LE came out crippling us with only 24 tracks instead of the 64 (or something like that) virtual tracks. 32 now..but still not enough for my taste...I'd like to decide how many tracks i wanna use and not Digidesign. (no offence to the digi team...i like your stuff audio recording is great...but since the midi timing in your gear still isn't tight. the only way to obtain a tight mix is to RECORD EVERYTHING IN AUDIO , thus 24 tracks JUST ISN'T ENOUGH!!! and giving us 8 more tracks to shut us up...ain't going to impress me either. So I was forced towards Logic Audio against my will. i was afraid of the learning curve...but boy AM I GLAD i made this step...It only looks difficult...but it's just a matter of getting used to it. now (3 months later) i find it very easy, powerfull, midi timing is rock solid, audio kicks ass. the other day i was running 50 stereo audio tracks on my dual 500 using a DIGI001+digidrive...
if i would run 50 stereo tracks in cubase ...my puter would probably just explode...!
but in logic...flawless...doesn't crash on me...when i hit start in logic , the 50 stereo tracks just start...and i don't have to wait for 5 seconds before it starts playing like in cubase.
like i said...i tried Vision , cubase, digital performer, pro tools, but the one that touched me and i think Apple too is Emagic logic audio platinum...
Don't misunderstand me...i love digidesign's stuff. i love my digi001 and i love pro tools software. but i don't like the limited track count and the weak midi timing. but hey..let's see what the future will bring us.-)
Hope i was of any help.
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  #3  
Old 08-11-2002, 03:54 AM
DooDooDoo DooDooDoo is offline
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Default Re: MIDI Timing on PT LE

Quote:
Originally posted by krazee:
So I was forced towards Logic Audio against my will. i was afraid of the learning curve...but boy AM I GLAD i made this step...It only looks difficult...but it's just a matter of getting used to it. now (3 months later) i find it very easy, powerfull, midi timing is rock solid, audio kicks ass. the other day i was running 50 stereo audio tracks on my dual 500 using a DIGI001+digidrive...
if i would run 50 stereo tracks in cubase ...my puter would probably just explode...!
but in logic...flawless...doesn't crash on me...when i hit start in logic , the 50 stereo tracks just start...and i don't have to wait for 5 seconds before it starts playing like in cubase.
like i said...i tried Vision , cubase, digital performer, pro tools, but the one that touched me and i think Apple too is Emagic logic audio platinum...
Don't misunderstand me...i love digidesign's stuff. i love my digi001 and i love pro tools software. but i don't like the limited track count and the weak midi timing. but hey..let's see what the future will bring us.-)
Hope i was of any help.[/QB]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
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Old 08-11-2002, 04:20 AM
Bastiaan Bastiaan is offline
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Default Re: MIDI Timing on PT LE

i think digidesign knows this. They have that new midi i/o box, and in the specs there's something about "time-stamping", so i think if you use this interface in the future, your timing will be better. I think its possible to use this interface with ptle....
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  #5  
Old 08-11-2002, 04:21 AM
DooDooDoo DooDooDoo is offline
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Default Re: MIDI Timing on PT LE

Quote:
Originally posted by krazee:
So I was forced towards Logic Audio against my will. i was afraid of the learning curve...but boy AM I GLAD i made this step...It only looks difficult...but it's just a matter of getting used to it. now (3 months later) i find it very easy, powerfull, midi timing is rock solid, audio kicks ass. the other day i was running 50 stereo audio tracks on my dual 500 using a DIGI001+digidrive...
if i would run 50 stereo tracks in cubase ...my puter would probably just explode...!
but in logic...flawless...doesn't crash on me...when i hit start in logic , the 50 stereo tracks just start...and i don't have to wait for 5 seconds before it starts playing like in cubase.
like i said...i tried Vision , cubase, digital performer, pro tools, but the one that touched me and i think Apple too is Emagic logic audio platinum...
Don't misunderstand me...i love digidesign's stuff. i love my digi001 and i love pro tools software. but i don't like the limited track count and the weak midi timing. but hey..let's see what the future will bring us.-)
Hope i was of any help.[/QB]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the advise, that confirms what I've mostly heard. Curious to know though how you managed to transfer your work from PT format to Logic ? Is it transparant ? Did you use a dedicated translator that came with Logic (like the one with performer, I can't recall the name) ? I'm affraid the songs I did may stay just as they are, part of the pre historical life of the chapter "music on computers". I suppose people can hear the mix I've made and know what it is about without being too critical on the "production".

I'm probably going to make that move in September. Kowing Pro tools is not a bad thing (I've spend a lot of reading and trying). But that three months period to get logic steady got me nervous.

Recording midi to tighen the mix is not working for me. Having worked on MPC you know what I mean. I DEMAND that the music comes out right as soon as I record it right. Not after time reajustment.

Best regards
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  #6  
Old 08-12-2002, 09:44 PM
krazee krazee is offline
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Default Re: MIDI Timing on PT LE

DooDooDoo, there's no easy way out...if you want to transfer a mix from PTLE to logic...What i do is...
i consolidate all my audio tracks from bar1 till the end of the song...that would give you every audio track from bar1 to the end.
let's say you have recorded 16 audio tracks that would give you 16 audio files with the same length.
after that ...just export your song as a midi file..(don't forget to write down or take a snapshot of your midi settings. midi channels you used etc. + bpm of the track.)
after that create a new folder to store your logic session in ...also create an audio folder in that folder and copy all the consolidated files you just created to that folder...after that import the midi file in logic and just add the audio files to the audio file window , than drag each one of the audio files in logic arrange window , place 'em all at bar 1 ... set your midi channels right in logic and you ready to mix again...this time with a tight midi timing. Voila...that's how went to work...and you're not limited to 24 (or 32) audio tracks...
i already ran 50 stereo tracks...remember-)

i hope again that i was of any help to you-) and the rest of the people that spot this message-)

Krazee-)
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  #7  
Old 08-30-2002, 02:53 AM
DooDooDoo DooDooDoo is offline
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Default Re: MIDI Timing on PT LE

Hi folks,

just a word on this oh very old issue. I took a week off and got PTLE midi working nice (as it should do). WOW HOW ? A collegue of mine suggested this move before acquiering Logic :
• Initialising flash memory (reboot mac holding "option" + "alt" + "p" + "r"; 2 or 3 times).
• Rebuild OMS studio set up (2.3.8 for PT LE 5.1.1) without DIGI port.

My songs that sounded heavy now grove right.
Don't ask me why. Sometimes you got to shake things up. I'll get a nice voc preamp (HARDware !!) instead of / before logic.

So for anyone who cares a little, one should use what's needed and what's not, "out of the way !". The old reboot thing made my day, Good Heaven. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]
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  #8  
Old 08-30-2002, 06:25 AM
dkrausz dkrausz is offline
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Default Re: MIDI Timing on PT LE

I have been doing midi in PT for quite some time now with great success. Mostly very dense orchestral stuff in combination with audio data and heavy automation. I find the timing to be quite solid. I think the reason why some people have trouble is because of a combination of OMS, hardware and configuration issues. One these are ironed out, things run the way they should (obviously) [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Midi is a VERY finicky thing on ANY system. There are just TOO many variables to put blame on just one part of the chain (like PT) in a midi system.

You have to look at the whole chain… I’ve been doing midi for years. When it’s good it’s great. When it’s bad, it totally sucks!

Sure there are programs out there which may have some more features than PT in regards to midi editing, i.e. groove quantize, humanize, loop playback, etc. It really depends on what style of music you compose which will determine what you really need to use. For me, the simple fact that PT’s integration of the two (midi & audio) are so well thought out (IMO) is why I find it to be the way to go. I really like being able to stay within the same environment to get the job done.

Really, I have only one gripe with PT’s midi. The lack of continuos control over tempo maps. If you need to do a retarde, you have to input these tempo events manually (instead of just "drawing in a curve"). For smooth and long retardes. There can be as many as 20 to 30 tempo events that need to be input to the tempo map by hand. Very time consuming…

My .02 ¢

dk
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  #9  
Old 08-30-2002, 09:21 AM
accession accession is offline
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Default Re: MIDI Timing on PT LE

Quote:
Originally posted by dkrausz:
I have been doing midi in PT for quite some time now with great success. Mostly very dense orchestral stuff in combination with audio data and heavy automation. I find the timing to be quite solid.
dk
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi there,

Are you doing plenty of MIDI percussion as well as running plug-ins with your audio?

What MIDI interface? Digi001? Third party? Serial? USB?

Cheers,

Phil
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  #10  
Old 08-30-2002, 10:47 AM
DooDooDoo DooDooDoo is offline
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Default Re: MIDI Timing on PT LE

Quote:
Originally posted by dkrausz:

Really, I have only one gripe with PT’s midi. The lack of continuos control over tempo maps. If you need to do a retarde, you have to input these tempo events manually (instead of just "drawing in a curve"). For smooth and long retardes. There can be as many as 20 to 30 tempo events that need to be input to the tempo map by hand. Very time consuming…

My .02 ¢

dk
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did it on a recent work for an outro by dichotomy, cuting in half each portion of a new tempo announcing the end. But before you put all the tempo markers right you want to make sure the song structure is not going to change ... or else you have to do drag all markers or do it again

Rémy
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