New Licensing

[YYR123]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

Another shoe just dropped in the cloud game. Microsoft just lifted the one terabyte limit on the cloud space that comes bundled with a 69 dollar yearly MS office subscription.

$69 is pretty cheap ! And who doesn't use MS

But the cloud thing with documents and password files and all that!!! Ugh the Alex Jones in me says NSA is checking on my files more than a teenager updating her Instagram account

[RussUK]

Originally Posted by 21 Junipers

Not really. But it does serve an agenda.

“Beware of anyone who claims to be neutral, for they always have an agenda.”
― Douglas Wilson, What I Learned in Narnia

You might also want to read 'Neutrality and the Academic Ethic' by Robert L Simon. The book is about neutrality in academia but the arguments stand for any arena.

[groundcontrol]

Thanks for the reminder. I'll keep that in mind when visiting PTE...

[21 Junipers]

Originally Posted by RussUK

“Beware of anyone who claims to be neutral, for they always have an agenda.”
― Douglas Wilson, What I Learned in Narnia

You might also want to read 'Neutrality and the Academic Ethic' by Robert L Simon. The book is about neutrality in academia but the arguments stand for any arena.

You mean where the author argues FOR neutrality in academia?

Doesn't have much to do with the fact that the type of poll you are taking are inherently biased from a statistical point of view (see link above).

FWIW - I am not defending Avid's pricing, subscription model, performance relative to PT11 or lack of clear communication. I own PT11 HD and have for some time. And as others have stated until recently it has not been used; paid for something I really couldn't use. But I understand the re-write and turning that ship around.

In any case it LOOKS like my best option is to sit on the sidelines until late 2015. I'll either find that they deliver on their promises to deliver functionality I need or I'll look for an alternative. Of course by owning PT 11 already I have an inherent bias as there is no/little cost for me to wait until next year.

Regarding your bias - I can see how Avid's new subscription/perpetual license pricing model might decrease the number of PT users on the lower end. This would seem to be a negative with regard to PT Expert's past and ongoing investment. Less PT users on the lower end may well result in less subscribers to PT Expert. So a biased poll serves an agenda; argued against (and for) in the book you referenced.

This thread serves as and example to show the inherent bias of your poll. Few of those who are willing to wait for better communication and live with subscription pricing or higher priced perpetual licenses are willing to step into this mess of a thread. Why bother? No need to be perceived as defending Avid (which is inappropriate/difficult considering the past few years). Why not just wait?

Note that the fact that some (unknown) number of non-responders are willing to wait does not mean we are entirely happy with what we have (and have not) heard from Avid so far.

But I for one am willing to wait through this cycle. My biased position of already owning and using Logic and Cubase as well as PT 11 allows me to do so with little or no downside.

PS - I am also a subscriber to Adobe's CC. While some would see CC as expensive and less than perfect (certain Adobe products are not included) those tools have paid for themselves over and over again since I've been subscribing. Either you have paying work or not and NEED those tools or not. That is going to be what makes Avid's new model either work or fail. Can they deliver this time under a new model? It looks like we will soon see.

[mesaone]

Bias alone is not a bad thing. It would be strange to expect there to be no bias in situations like these - especially with a poll, when voicing a biased opinion is the exact thing that's being asked of respondents.

[21 Junipers]

Originally Posted by mesaone

Bias alone is not a bad thing. It would be strange to expect there to be no bias in situations like these - especially with a poll, when voicing a biased opinion is the exact thing that's being asked of respondents.

I don't think anyone including Russ believes there will not be bias. As you say, it would be odd not to expect it exists.

The broader point is that such a poll provides no real insight to "where people stand" as Russ stated.....but it does support a predetermined position due in part to the self selection of responders.

Add it might even increase traffic to the site. Eyeballs are money right?

[Righty27]

Originally Posted by 21 Junipers

I don't think anyone including Russ believes there will not be bias. As you say, it would be odd not to expect it exists.



The broader point is that such a poll provides no real insight to "where people stand" as Russ stated.....but it does support a predetermined position due in part to the self selection of responders.



Add it might even increase traffic to the site. Eyeballs are money right?

The same argument could be used to suggest that Russ has a vested interest in the survival and future success of Pro Tools, and thus keeping Avid sweet. Maybe this all part of his master plan by joining forces with Logic, Ableton Live and Reason Experts?!



Considering that DUC is the biggest Pro Tools user forum, it would be unrealistic for Russ to ignore the sentiments overwhelmingly being expressed here. To suggest that contrary viewpoints are not being aired because ... well, I don't know why? It was made clear earlier that all opinions are welcome to help everyone (including Avid FWIW) get a real 'feel' for this issue and although clearly not scientific, it does appear that a majority of non-casual users (we're posting in a Pro Tools forum!) are not happy - this is backed up by Russ' polls.



I agree that a large number of those who will pay/continue regardless won't post here because they're busy working with Pro Tools or just not forum-types ... but the same could apply to more users who are against the new plans.



We previously invited 'lurkers' to express their views and a few did - from memory, none were supportive of the plans ... but again, in the absence of anything tangible from the Avid guys, it would be interesting to hear more from the other side of the debate (not necessarily just 'supporters' but also 'not bothereds') :)

[noiseboyuk]

Originally Posted by 21 Junipers

PS - I am also a subscriber to Adobe's CC. While some would see CC as expensive and less than perfect (certain Adobe products are not included) those tools have paid for themselves over and over again since I've been subscribing. Either you have paying work or not and NEED those tools or not. That is going to be what makes Avid's new model either work or fail. Can they deliver this time under a new model? It looks like we will soon see.

It's an interesting comparison. Our experiences are rather different. I updated Audition to CS5.5, but when they went subs only it was the definitive end of the road for me with that path. I'll stick using 1.5 and 5.5. Ultimately I don't need any new features to do what I need the product to do. Yes, I need those tools, but no I don't really need further updates for them. And I can't see that changing in the medium or even long term - only when 5.5 doesn't work with my next version of Windows I guess. My other tools can be more up to date, and probably over time I'll use Audition less and less as new functionality in other tools become part of my workflow.

I don't do rental. It's directly analogous to why you'd want to own a house rather than rent it - it's just throwing money away otherwise.

Adobe don't have an equivalent to the support subs model. If I could pay $149 for a year's support and upgrades which have permanent licenses, I might well be tempted. But I wouldn't buy either a full new license at high cost or rent, other alternatives are more appealing and cost-effective. Maybe it works in the markets for other products in their range, but I'm an ex-Adobe customer as a result of their marketing changes.

[21 Junipers]

Originally Posted by noiseboyuk

It's an interesting comparison. Our experiences are rather different. I updated Audition to CS5.5, but when they went subs only it was the definitive end of the road for me with that path. I'll stick using 1.5 and 5.5. Ultimately I don't need any new features to do what I need the product to do. Yes, I need those tools, but no I don't really need further updates for them. And I can't see that changing in the medium or even long term - only when 5.5 doesn't work with my next version of Windows I guess. My other tools can be more up to date, and probably over time I'll use Audition less and less as new functionality in other tools become part of my workflow.

I don't do rental. It's directly analogous to why you'd want to own a house rather than rent it - it's just throwing money away otherwise.

Adobe don't have an equivalent to the support subs model. If I could pay $149 for a year's support and upgrades which have permanent licenses, I might well be tempted. But I wouldn't buy either a full new license at high cost or rent, other alternatives are more appealing and cost-effective. Maybe it works in the markets for other products in their range, but I'm an ex-Adobe customer as a result of their marketing changes.

I too was VERY against software rental. But some time ago I needed some web development tools. Adobe had them as a part of CC. I signed up for a month. Got what I needed and stopped. My next need presented itself and a few months later I subscribed. All driven by paying work. With regard to them "not having an equivalent to the support subs model" I'm not sure (partly Avid's fault). With CC I can text or call during business hours for my $49.95 subscription. And now I get the Touch Apps as a part of the deal. But yes I'd still rather 'own'. And Avid is not Adobe (size or otherwise).

My wife subscribes to MS Office. I think it's 5 licenses for family members for whatever fee. I remember her saying that it was more cost effective over 5 years than owning. I subscribe to MS Developer Network. Gives me more tools in a cost effective manner than purchasing all of them.

My point? Like it or not at least a good portion of the software world is moving towards subscription for a variety of reasons. One of those is a focus on Agile development. Of course you have choices (at least for now) and many will opt out as long as they have an alternative. Alternative choices are good.

Avid WILL fail if they don't live up to the promise of delivering the functionality enough users will either pay for (perpetual) or subscribe to.

And yes....Avid has given plenty of reason to be skeptical. But in my experience the alternative products and the companies that own them provide plenty of reason for the same skepticism. YMMV.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by 21 Junipers

...Avid WILL fail if they don't live up to the promise of delivering the functionality enough users will either pay for (perpetual) or subscribe to...

Exactly which means Avid is betting the store on their development team as opposed to their sales team.

The music industry can't do the same fast enough for me! Actually Agile is exactly how the music industry worked back in the '60s.