Playback Engine Latancy

[jbandes]

I am using the latest version of Pro Tools and I am feeding the output of a tape into an Apollo 8 interface and using two hardware inserts for a Warm Audio 273 and WA76 and I was getting awful pops and clicks. I set all the sound things in windows to elinate it and ran Latancy Mon and it reported high latency on wdf01000.sys Windows Driver Framework Run time. Nothing I did could fix it

I increased my playback buffer to 1024 in pro tools and that seems to have fixed it.

I am on a super fast computer with thunderbolt and latest drivers so I am puzzled why I need to set my playback buffer so high and why I can't eliminate the Latancy on wdf01000.sys. Also the Latancy on wdf01000.sys only goes up when I launch protools. If I close protools it goes back to normal



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[clancychris]

Do you experience the same issue when you're not using the hardware inserts?

Assuming you're using them as actual inserts in pro tools, the audio will go from the tape into the apollo and into pro tools. Then out of pro tools into the hardware inserts. So this will induce some delay for the round trip out and back in again.

Just trying to narrow down what is causing your issue

[jbandes]

Thank you for your kind reply. I took the tape output and sent it directly into the Inputs 1 and 2 on the Apollo 8 with no inserts. I reset the Apollo 8 to its default settings and here is what happens.

When I start up the computer and run Latency Monitor it reports no latency at all and everything is fine. As soon as I launch pro tools 12 latest version, after about 30 seconds the Latency monitor shows 3.5 ms of latency on Wdf01000.sys Kernel Mode Driver Framework Runtime. As you know anything over 1 second causes latency monitor to report that my system is having trouble handling real time audio. If I close Pro Tools 12 and restart Lanency Monitor the problem goes away. For some reason starting or launching pro tools causes Latency Monitor to report the problem and it is always the same driver Wdf01000.sys that reports the problem. I was on windows version 1809 and they posted something about upgrading the Kernel Mode Driver so I reinstalled Windows 10 version 1803 from a backup but same problem.

I was able to stop the pops and clicks by setting the Play Back Engine in Pro Tools HW Buffer from 512 to 1024.

My computer is very powerful and while setting the HW buffer to 1024 stops the pops and clicks Latency Monitor still states that my computer is having trouble handling real time audio and could experience pops and clicks.

I suppose I could ignore the Latency Monitor results and leave my HW buffer at 1024 but I would like to figure out why this one driver is having serious latency issues and only when I launch Pro Tools ?

[Darryl Ramm]

Nothing here makes sense.

You are recording from tape. So why not start with IO buffer set to max? Why is latency even being discussed?

When you run with a large IO buffer you get high latency. That is the IO buffer doing its job.... and you then have a tool reporting high latency as expected. So? What actual problem are you having that you trying to solve?

Lots of useful info missing like: Session sample rate? Disk cache set to what? You mention an Apollo 8 then give a laundry list of stuff in your signature that does not include an Apollo 8. can you describe your exact setup (with Sandra report as well).

You were getting pops and clicks at what buffer size? And what about all the standard trouble shooting you should do there? Is your system fully optimized etc. Start at “help us help you” up top of every DUC web page. Wasting time running latency measurement tools is not mentioned anywhere there... tell us what exacty you tried in troubleshooting and post a SiSoft Sandra report. All standard stuff expected from you To get useful help here.


Do you have any UAD plugins active in Pro Tools or in the UAD console (if in the console what ones?).

With nothing else connected, no plugins instantiated anywhere can you play back pre-recorded clean content without hearicg clicks and pops and at what IO buffer sizes? Can you track a single mic input to Pro Tools similarly with no click/pops at what IO buffer sizes. If you hear clicks/pops are they in the monitoring only or in the recording.

[jbandes]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

Nothing here makes sense.

You are recording from tape. So why not start with IO buffer set to max? Why is latency even being discussed?

Because if I run everything through the Console 2 application for Universal Audio with Low Latency turned on I could not also use any 3rd party plugins. In order to use both UAD plugins and 3rd party plugins you need to turn low latency Monitoring off and when it was off it was popping and clicking and sounded awful.

When you run with a large IO buffer you get high latency. That is the IO buffer doing its job.... and you then have a tool reporting high latency as expected. So? What actual problem are you having that you trying to solve?

The original problem was the popping and clicking but when I increased the HW buffer to 1024 it fixed the problem so as of now I am OK and no longer experiencing any real problem except that Latency Monitor is saying that my PC cant reliably play back audio because of the reported high latency of the Wfd01000.sys driver. Its just annoying that Latency Mon is reporting a potential problem but you are correct, since the increase of the buffer to 1024 seems to have eliminated the popping and clicking I guess I am fine now and there really is not any "real problem" its now more of just an annoyance.

Lots of useful info missing like: Session sample rate? Disk cache set to what? You mention an Apollo 8 then give a laundry list of stuff in your signature that does not include an Apollo 8. can you describe your exact setup (with Sandra report as well).

Sample rate is 48 and Disk cache is set to 1024. My signature line about hardware is accurate but I just purchased the Apollo 8 recently and need to update my signature line. Its connected via Thunderbolt on Windows 10 Using an ASUS ThunderboltEX 3 Expansion Card

You were getting pops and clicks at what buffer size? And what about all the standard trouble shooting you should do there? Is your system fully optimized etc. Start at “help us help you” up top of every DUC web page. Wasting time running latency measurement tools is not mentioned anywhere there... tell us what exacty you tried in troubleshooting and post a SiSoft Sandra report. All standard stuff expected from you To get useful help here.

Yes all windows optimization setting in power management and PCIE settings have been made, turning off Wifi and network cards and all the standard stuff. Your smart ass comment about wasting time running latency measurement tools is not very useful nor constructive. The Latency Monitor tools helps identify and I have used it before to help troublshoot problems. It was reporting this driver as a problem and it still reports it as a problem but ONLY when Protools is launched. While increasing the HW buffer from 512 to 1024 seems to have fixed the problem, there is a strong possability that a drive that still shows a latency of over 3 ms could still cause problems later


Do you have any UAD plugins active in Pro Tools or in the UAD console (if in the console what ones?).

No Plugins are running in UAD Console. Yes A reverb plugin is running in protools.

With nothing else connected, no plugins instantiated anywhere can you play back pre-recorded clean content without hearicg clicks and pops and at what IO buffer sizes? Can you track a single mic input to Pro Tools similarly with no click/pops at what IO buffer sizes. If you hear clicks/pops are they in the monitoring only or in the recording.

Good suggestions I will try these steps

I also did a complete factory reinstall of windows to rule out windows as the root cause but the problem is the same.

In summary when I launch protools I dont think that the one driver wfd01000.sys should jump to over 3 ms of latancy and when I close Pro Tools it goes back to normal. You are correct however, since for now the increase of the HW buffer appears to have stopped the popping and clicking in my mastering of these old reel to reels I suppose I should just not worry about it again unless it starts to interfere with remastering these old reel to reels.

[arche3]

Just leave it on largest buffer if transfering from analog tape. Problem solved. Don't look for issues that have no real reason to be solved. My 2 cents.

[jbandes]

Originally Posted by arche3

Just leave it on largest buffer if transfering from analog tape. Problem solved. Don't look for issues that have no real reason to be solved. My 2 cents.

Yes I totally agree. I used another Latancy tool and it reports no problems so Latency Mon is clearly not accurate. I think it's important to note that I spent several hours trying to troubleshoot this popping and clicking because I could night lay down a clean master. It was just a guess to increase the HW buffer since in the past that did not fix the problem in Ableton in the past but this time it worked so you are right I am just going to forget about it and appreciate very much all of those that offered to help.

These reel to reels are from famous clubs like Studio 54 so I wanted them to be as perfect as possible

Thanks again for the help

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[jbandes]

To the Moderators on this site. Allowing members to post crap about I should read the Manual and I am continuing to make a fool of myself, detracts and tarnishes the reputation of this site.

I have been in music production for 10 years, I don't need to be told to read a manual and that I am making a fool of myself. While the issue has been resolved by increasing my HW Buffer, the fact that some diagnostic tools were reporting high latency was of concern. In Ableton Live when I had a similar issue I worked with Microsoft and we in fact found a driver issue which they patched. This time the situation was very similar and it was actually and accident that I increased my HW Buffer to 1024 which I consider very large.

Notwithstanding that fact, the rude and arrogant behavior is NOT something that the moderators of this site should tolerate. I have added the offender to my ignore list but you may want to review your policies since this type of reply is not constructive and detracts from what you are attempting to do on this site.

[Southsidemusic]

Originally Posted by jbandes

... It was just a guess to increase the HW buffer since in the past that did not fix the problem in Ableton in the past but this time it worked so ...

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What do you mean just a guess to increase the buffer size? That was mentioned in basically every reply you have here including the first reply posted by Darryl?

Either way happy that you know what to do now if it happens again.

PS. Just an add here : You can’t rely on something working in one DAW and expect it to work on another as every DAW is different and handle the audio engine and many other funktions differently.

We use Ableton Live 10 Suite for a lot of midi productions and PT2018U for mixing and editing so I know what I am talking about here. Increasing the buffer should have been one of the first things to try and if you been using DAW’s for 10+ years you should also know this and when Darryl said to read the Manual it wasn’t an insult, it’s there for a reason and everyone reads it quite a lot as things pops up now and then which are well explained there.

And of course members should act properly here which they do for the most part.

The comments you listed wasn’t necessary and I appologize for that happening.

[Emcha_audio]

Jbandes Quick question here, why are you not using the appropriate Apollo 8 or the asio4all drivers, which should not be the windows default drivers?