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  #1  
Old 04-13-2015, 07:52 AM
innerbooty innerbooty is offline
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Default ITB Mix does not play back the same in Pro Tools 9 HD

Hi,
This is a bit hard to explain. But I have a simple mix of a live comedy album setup in Pro Tools 9 HD, entirely In The Box. I notice when I make an edit, and go to punch in a change on the master stereo mix track (record to disk), the waveforms in the previous bounce do not line up exactly with the waveforms in the new bounce, even though the audio in that section of the mix has not changed. The waveforms should be identical, but they are slightly off. There is a slight hiccup, even with a crossfade, so I have to find an area of relative silence to do a crossfade. Nothing has changed with the mix as far as number of plugins. And certainly no audio files have been shifted. I am using ADC. Plugs are Waves, Digi (Revibe), UA and one Slate compressor. I have tried different buffer size settings, and the waveforms are still off. I've also noticed this on other mixes in the past, but it's starting to bug me now. Shouldn't a simple In The Box mix that hasn't been changed come back and play EXACTLY the same?

Thanks for any tips! - Steve
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  #2  
Old 04-13-2015, 08:39 AM
Wall2Wall Wall2Wall is offline
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Default Re: ITB Mix does not play back the same in Pro Tools 9 HD

If I got you correctly, the plugins on your Master fader cause a little latency in the bounced stereo mix. Master fader does not have ADC. Use an aux track as your master fader instead.
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  #3  
Old 04-13-2015, 08:45 AM
innerbooty innerbooty is offline
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Default Re: ITB Mix does not play back the same in Pro Tools 9 HD

Thanks for the quick reply. However, I am already using an Aux track to do all my mastering processing. The master fader itself has no plugs, and is simply used for monitoring the mixes.
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  #4  
Old 04-13-2015, 09:05 AM
Wall2Wall Wall2Wall is offline
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Default Re: ITB Mix does not play back the same in Pro Tools 9 HD

This is a real mystery. Interested to see if anyone has the solution.
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  #5  
Old 04-13-2015, 01:19 PM
JuanPC JuanPC is offline
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Default Re: ITB Mix does not play back the same in Pro Tools 9 HD

The latency compensation is Red? Yellow or Green.?

It happens, because some plugins are not compensated properly,
You must find what plugin(s) are causing the problem...Disable not Bypass.
Also latency compensation must be set to the longest.

Izotope Ozone 4 I think is one of the....
T-racks 3 VST wrapped to RTAS has problems IF has linear phase & over sampling activated, adds too much latency, something like 20.000 samples.

Plugins with latency compensation issues/problems can be used in the master if you do not need to bounce & align sample accurate.
Or if you insert the same plugin in every channel, all channels will have the same error = no error.
It's a common "bug" with ProTools HD9.0.4 and HD hardware in OSX, that problem never happened in Win7x64.

Do you have an [I] on each channel.?
Do you have HD9.0.6 installed?

Try to see if you can split the Waves shell into individual plugins...
Try using a different version of the same plugin. Older & Newer.
Probably is the Slate plugin.
If the fault plugin is RTAS, and has a VST version, try wrapping with FXpansion v2.11 VST-RTAS Adapter to see if problem continues. Also try AU to RTAS Adapter if you are on Mac, and also has AU version.
If you have HD hardware, and plugin is TDM try change to RTAS in the plugin window, or backwards.

Disable & Enable plugins until all channels have Green latency.
Activate the latency window/viewer per channel, it's like adding more inserts or removing sends in a channel, right clicking an empty space on any channel in the Mixer window.

Tell us what was the problem.

Last but not least, could be your soundcard/drivers or CPU... What soundcard are you using.? What CPU..? What OSX.?
If you have HD hardware in OSX, set all TDM plugins to RTAS, save & quit... Then install JackOSX, and run
ProTools HD in OSX Core Audio Driver/Mode, not HD DSP drivers/mode, configure all I/O's exactly, and see if problem persists.
HD DSP hardware/drivers needs a decent CPU to make Latency Compensation.. Quad-core minimum, I7 920, or Xeon W3520 minimum. A 6-core CPU is better.

Some plugins have issues/problems with HyperThreading Enabled, Try Disable HT in the BIOS.

If none of this works... Jump from the tallest building in you city. Jajajajajajajajaja

Last edited by JuanPC; 04-13-2015 at 08:29 PM.
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  #6  
Old 04-13-2015, 05:42 PM
albee1952 albee1952 is offline
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Default Re: ITB Mix does not play back the same in Pro Tools 9 HD

Here is a workaround to try. bypass your master AUX track and go straight thru the master track with no mastering plugins. If that sounds correct, bounce that way. Then import the bounced stereo file into a new (blank) session at the same sample rate and bit depth. Apply your mastering plugins directly on the audio track and bounce that out as the final(mastered) product. Or, process the audio in place with the Audiosuite versions of your usual mastering chain(and render in the same order), and then export the audio file in the desired sample rate and bit depth(if you are going from 24 bit to 16 bit, the exported file will be dithered as part of the export process)
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  #7  
Old 04-13-2015, 06:12 PM
innerbooty innerbooty is offline
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Default Re: ITB Mix does not play back the same in Pro Tools 9 HD

Thanks guys! Wow, those are some serious troubleshooting tips. Much appreciated. The workarounds sound like too much, I think. That would really harsh my workflow, since this is something I do all the time. Interesting to know about the issues with some RTAS plugs in PT, and PT9 v9.0.4. I do however have PT 9.0.6 installed.

Coincidentally (or not?) in this same session, during a Bounce To Disk of the full comedy show about a week ago, the client just pointed me to a small dropout that must have occurred during the bounce. Yikes! That is almost more terrifying than the bounce audio not lining up consistently. I can't remember the last time I had a small dropout for no reason in the middle of a bounce. But it's seriously disconcerting. Again maybe a wayward RTAS plug? It's not automation or anything. Today, when I played back the same session I bounced in from that date, the dropout did not occur in that spot. The Aux track that is doing the mastering has the UAD2 ATR-102 tape plug, the Slate Red 3, Waves L2 and Powr dither.

I have delay compensation set to Longest (4,000+ samples). I have tried setting the H/W buffer to different settings. The higher the buffer setting, the further the discrepancy between the original bounce and the new bounce. Even at 128 (which I rarely use, because my Lexicon plugs start flaking, and things get weird in RTAS Land), there is still 107 samples difference between the original bounce. With a 512 buffer (which I often use) there is 3,563 samples of latency!!!

I am using Waves RCOMP and UAD2 Fatso Sr. on the audience Aux. UAD2 Harrison 32 and 1176AE on main vocal. Verbs are Waves IR-1 and Revibe. That's about it. Simple session. Might stop using UAD2 plugs in these comedy sessions. And maybe the Slate Red3. The comedy stuff is the only stuff I do where I need Bounce to Disk to be more or less sample accurate and consistent, and I only just started using UAD2 plugs in these comedy sessions. Do you think it could be UAD? Slate...?

At 256 buffer the master Aux with the ATR-102, Red3, L2 and POWr is showing orange with 3,426 delay. The Aux track I use to monitor the master Aux is red showing 0,0,0.

Anyway, thanks a lot!
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  #8  
Old 04-13-2015, 06:18 PM
innerbooty innerbooty is offline
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Default Re: ITB Mix does not play back the same in Pro Tools 9 HD

Here is a link to a screenshot of the mix window, H/W Buffer = 256 (not sure how to attach an image here on the DUC...)

http://axissound.com/comedy/comedy_s...screenshot.png
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  #9  
Old 04-13-2015, 08:25 PM
JuanPC JuanPC is offline
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Default Re: ITB Mix does not play back the same in Pro Tools 9 HD

Quote:
Originally Posted by innerbooty View Post
Here is a link to a screenshot of the mix window, H/W Buffer = 256 (not sure how to attach an image here on the DUC...)

http://axissound.com/comedy/comedy_s...screenshot.png
MON is Red.
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  #10  
Old 04-14-2015, 09:55 AM
innerbooty innerbooty is offline
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Default Re: ITB Mix does not play back the same in Pro Tools 9 HD

I did notice that Mon is RED. Actually, I'm "new" to HD, having only retired my trusty old Mix 3 system a little more than a year ago. I'm still trying to get my head around ADC, and why/how things turn orange or red and what that really means. The longest delay I see is 3,426 samples on the L2 track. So why is anything going red? Don't I have up to 4,009 samples of total delay in Long mode? I have read the manual, but probably need to read again, and I still don't quite get it. If there is *red* anywhere on a track, would that explain the offset in my audio files? If there is no red on any track, should the ADC be repeatable and reliable?

Thanks again!
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