Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Learn & Support


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > Live Sound > VENUE Live Sound Systems

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-16-2008, 09:35 AM
TwoPort TwoPort is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Granite Bay, California
Posts: 121
Default Pro Tools Driving Live Performance

** First I searched the DUC for a little while and could not find any threads on this issue. **

This is a pro tools question but since it's about live performance I'm hoping this is would be a good starting point. I'd probably be sent here from the PT Forums. I got the "Dunce of he DUC" award yesterday when I found my Pro Tools tracks with live performance integration had a major flaw. (The major flaw was that I didn't know what I was doing which is common for me.)

What I'm trying to do is:

Develop a PT session for a live band to play with that plays back a whole set with 15 different songs:
1. Midi time code for click for the band to hear - and "holds the map of the set together."
2. Audio tracks we add to the session for dubs, extra parts, etc.
3. Then even adding midi device input and playing virtual instruments in the session.
4. Automation of effects busses with Venue (Which I posted about before)

So I naievly got to work building a session:
1. Beginning with tempo and measure counting in Grid mode the songs for Set 1 were mapped out with tempo changes and markers. (midi tempo playing the click)
2. Then we began adding talk over tracks and other parts.

So far so good. Then it all fell apart!

I noticed we accidentally left a tempo change in the middle of a song, which happened to be in the middle of the set. When we removed the tempo change..... oh yes, this is the dunce part... of course it changed all of the grid "after" and none of the audio lined up any more. (absolute time vs. midi time)

So then we went in circles for a couple hours before realizing we were lost. Actually, I'm reluctant to even try to ask questions about what I was doing because it was probably wrong headed from the start. What came to mind was (1) whether there's a method of locking the audio tracks with midi, the markers, tempo changes, etc. so they are "protected" in a session. (2) Whether you make each session separate for each song then import them to an exact point in a new session.... But these may be the wrong direction.

I may also be completely wrong on this but it was my "assumption" that others were using Pro Tools to play back tracks for a set. It would seem that if it is done - it's not done the way I tried it!


THE QUESTION: How do people who know what they are doing integrate Pro Tools tracks into live playback?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-16-2008, 09:53 AM
Scott Fahy Scott Fahy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Maple Grove, MN
Posts: 400
Default Re: Pro Tools Driving Live Performance

Not sure if this helps--- we just did our Christmas production at church and used 16 tracks of Protools live. ----But we used a separate laptop and a 002 to run the Protools to feed everything into the Venue. No MIDI and no Virtual instruments though

Scott
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-16-2008, 10:12 AM
TwoPort TwoPort is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Granite Bay, California
Posts: 121
Default Re: Pro Tools Driving Live Performance

Quote:
16 tracks of Protools live.... No MIDI and no Virtual instruments though.
Hey thanks Scott. I'm hoping that editing tracks with midi and audio are not like handling oil and water. Perhaps ultimately the kind of session I was fantasizing about mixing midi with audio (willy-nilly) is not workable in which case audio tracks will be the solution.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-17-2008, 10:37 AM
dstagl dstagl is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 414
Default Re: Pro Tools Driving Live Performance

It's been a while since I've done a lot in Pro Tools other than basic tracking at FOH, but I know you can designate your audio tracks to conform to samples or I think "ticks". Samples will leave everything in one place if you change your tempo, the other will shift things if you change tempo.

IMHO, Pro Tools isn't so hot for what you're trying to do. We currently use it live for loops and additional tracks, but it seems like most people I talk to are moving towards Ableton Live for this sort of thing.

If I was using Pro Tools for what you're trying to do, I would probably do each song as a separate session to start with. I would bounce any virtual instruments and click tracks to audio files. Then I have all the tracks starting at the same point so that I can drop them into a timeline in any session and have them work. This way it's a lot easier to change a setlist on the fly if neccessary.

Dave
__________________
http://www.goingto11.com
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-17-2008, 03:17 PM
TwoPort TwoPort is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Granite Bay, California
Posts: 121
Default Re: Pro Tools Driving Live Performance

Quote:
... you can designate your audio tracks to conform to samples or I think "ticks". Samples will leave everything in one place if you change your tempo, the other will shift things if you change tempo.
Thanks Dave that got me going at least in a direction. I found this in a Mix Mag description of PT 7:

"In earlier PT software, MIDI data defaults to tick-based timing--bars/beats no matter the tempo change. Audio has always been sample-based. Pro Tools 7 allows for audio and MIDI data to be either sample-based or tick-based at your discretion. Tempo changes only affect the start or sync point of tick-based audio. Tick-based MIDI note data changes duration with tempo changes. Sample-based MIDI events stay fixed to the timeline despite tempo change. This is an incredible capability when composing, editing and manipulating film score music to picture."

Now I gotta try testing it. I'll be at NAMM so maybe I can bust through the 10 deep crowd at the Digi "universe" and get someone to demo too..
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-21-2008, 02:22 PM
TwoPort TwoPort is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Granite Bay, California
Posts: 121
Default Re: Pro Tools Driving Live Performance

Well... Pro Tools 7.4 is exactly what I was looking for. Amazing demo's at NAMM. With Structure it's a hyperspace leap for this kind of integration. Treating audio like MIDI.... Elastic Time.... wow!!! Although Phil Jackson has an 8-core brain and moves quickly, at least you know it can be done.

Also - the Digi customer support interface was all around top notch. Seriously - it was Ritz Carlton level support.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-22-2008, 08:30 AM
emluper emluper is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 468
Default Re: Pro Tools Driving Live Performance

What I usually do is use the 16 assignable channels into either open channels on the board, or open FX returns. You may have to submix in PT to get all the channels that you need into the Stage Rack. The other thing that you have to keep in mind is since you have two units up there, how are you going to get the PT audio into the second unit? I use any available Direct Outs to feed audio over to the second console. Who has control, FOH or monitor world? How much of the PT audio needs to be folded back to the musicians, all of it or just the important stuff w/ a click. BTW, we use a shaker loop built on a 16th note groove instead of an incessant click, ESPECIALLY the PT click.

An important things to keep in mind. If you are doing anything w/tempo in PT always make all your tracks (audio or MIDI) tick based. This will allow the audio to stay locked in Bar/Beat location if other edits are made elsewhere. I would also use one entire session if you are doing multiple songs and wanting it all in PT. The wait time for loading sessions one at a time is excrutiating in a live setting. Dave Stagl is right when he says that industry standard for this sort of this is Ableton Live, but if you want to use PT, this is the way you're going to have to do it.

If you run into any more trouble, hit be back here. I'm in San Jose so I can always take a drive up if you really get stuck.

Erik Luper
Family Community Church
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-22-2008, 09:35 PM
TwoPort TwoPort is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Granite Bay, California
Posts: 121
Default Re: Pro Tools Driving Live Performance - UPDATE

Got it all sorted out.

1. Metronome comes from Pro Tools.....
2. Structure instance "metronome" also from Pro tools where we need something more than "CLICK!!!"
3. Vocal FX for 4 vocalists automated in Pro Tools: volume and other parameter changes.
What I like best is how you can select Midi tempo as the echo source - it's always in time...
5. Audio Tracks Overdubs playback from Pro Tools.
6. Pro Tools Midi through Structure for playback of MIDI parts... (percussion and other instruments)
7. Elastic time in Pro Tools gives me amazing flexibility for tempo changes where we need them.


I have used it probably 50 times now without the slightest hitch. I've got a Mac 8 Core with 16 gigs of ram. I check the processor and etc. for utilization and it's hardly doing anything...

The system is just absolutely amazing! or "Hey, my Venue & Pro Tools go hard, I don't need nuthin' else"
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-23-2008, 03:46 PM
emluper emluper is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 468
Default Re: Pro Tools Driving Live Performance - UPDATE

Sounds great! If you haven't already, you should look into using MMC to start and stop PT playback from your snapshots.

Erik
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-24-2008, 08:23 AM
TwoPort TwoPort is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Granite Bay, California
Posts: 121
Default Re: Pro Tools Driving Live Performance - UPDATE

Quote:
MMC to start and stop PT playback from your snapshots.

Erik
Thanks for bringing it up Erik - it has interesting possibilities...

Is there a way to use a snapshot to select a specific position (i.e. Marker) in the track. It seems the snapshot would have to have the capability to move the Pro Tools "cursor" to a specific position in the session and then "press play". My session is in ticks so it has beats, measures. That would be awesome if Venue could do that... Can it?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Live performance with Pro Tools 10... Am I crazy? Twilight Verge Pro Tools 10 11 09-25-2013 04:31 AM
Pro Tools for Live Performance? Sparky1 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 3 09-09-2008 07:45 PM
Pro tools in live performance anyone? LUISMI 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 0 07-28-2008 04:43 PM
Running Pro Tools for Live performance KMK 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 1 04-05-2006 07:05 PM
Pro Tools in live performance? kyoko Tips & Tricks 10 10-08-2003 02:43 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:15 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com