Eleven Rack with hi-z mic for amplified harmonica?

[bluzeharp]

Just got an Eleven Rack w/Pro Tools 12. I want to use it as a modeler direct to PA for amplified harmonica, just like you might do with a guitar. I'm using a high impedance microphone similar to a Shure 520 "Green Bullet". These mic's work fine direct into a guitar amp, or into things like the Digitek RP modeling pedals straight into a PA.

Avid claims the Eleven rack senses the 1/4" input impedance and adjusts automatically, I jacked the hi-z mic into the guitar input using a standard non-balanced cable with a 1/4" TS connector, and sent the XLR left channel output of the Eleven Rack to a QSC K10 powered speaker. Couldn't find a setting that didn't either feed back at very low levels (set low on the speaker too), or that wasn't extremely distorted and/or barely audible. Anyone else try this... suggestions or insights?

[Darryl Ramm]

The distortion will depend on what you have set up in the virtual rig in the Eleven Rack.. Start with just an amp and cab in the rig and pick something close to what you are used to with a real amp/cab.

I would start with your mic connected to the mic XLR input, not guitar input, play with the mic preamp gain knob to get a decent level. And in user options set the rig input to be the Mic in not the guitar input.

[bluzeharp]

Are the modeling features of the Eleven Rack available through the mic pre?

In any case the hi-z mic I'm using is a much better match for a guitar input than the lo-z mic pre. I'd need to add a matching transformer between the mic and the Eleven Rack if I go that route, much less trouble to plug direct into the 1/4" input.

Is there a way to switch off all modeling and start with a clean pass through of the guitar input? Admittedly have not spent much time looking for a solution, busy with production details for an international music festival... forced by time constraints to chip at my PT / Eleven Rack learning curve in small bits.

[mesaone]

Originally Posted by bluzeharp

I'd need to add a matching transformer between the mic and the Eleven Rack if I go that route, much less trouble to plug direct into the 1/4" input.

Have you got a passive DI box lying around? It seems unnecessary given the high impedance input on the Eleven rack, but it's worth trying out. Also as I'm sure you're aware, many of these mics have a volume knob. You could try different settings on that.

Also be aware that the Eleven rack doesn't "sense" the impedance of the mic, the input impedance is changed based on the first amp or effect in the current rig.

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by bluzeharp

Are the modeling features of the Eleven Rack available through the mic pre?



In any case the hi-z mic I'm using is a much better match for a guitar input than the lo-z mic pre. I'd need to add a matching transformer between the mic and the Eleven Rack if I go that route, much less trouble to plug direct into the 1/4" input.



Is there a way to switch off all modeling and start with a clean pass through of the guitar input? Admittedly have not spent much time looking for a solution, busy with production details for an international music festival... forced by time constraints to chip at my PT / Eleven Rack learning curve in small bits.

You really do have to open up the Eleven Rack User Guide and have a read, this is just too complex a box to just try to wing it.

The input to the rig can be any input on the Eleven Rack, "Rig Input" set in user options.

You should start with as simple as possible rig. Just an amp and cab.. You will need an amp sim there to get enough volume and have it sound decent. Pick the closest amp/cab combination to what you physical amp you normally play with.

Just get something as simple as possible working first and worry about impedance stuff later. You are trying to use a simulation of a guitar amp with a low input impedance (and capacitive loading) so that it "pulls" the tone of your high output impedance microphone.. The mic input on the Eleven Rack is just a modern high impedance op-amp buffered circuit, with high enough impedance it won't pull the mic signal around. Too bad, just get it working first. The mic preamp gain adjustment might be useful for getting started. And I would be very surprised if the true-Z stuff here is that important for you, vs. what you can just dial in with the amp/cab and some EQ in the rig.

[Cowboy Bob]

I agree with Daryl WRT reading the Eleven Rack Manual. There is a WEALTH of information there. It really is one of the better manuals that I have seen from Avid/Digidesign.

Now, you say that you have a high Z mic, similar to the Bullet, correct? Hopefully then that has a 1/4" TS connector, OR you have an adapter. I would NOT connect it to the mic in of the Eleven Rack.

I would connect it to the True Z guitar input. The reason being that these mics were designed to be used with a guitar amp, and that is what they like best. Oh you can go to the mic in, but I think you will be happier with the results of the True Z input instead.

I have an ancient Shure PE585 A that I use on certain vocals, and the only way it sounds "right" is through 11R and the True Z input.

You can use what ever amp model you want and or FX.

YES you can run the mic input of the 11R through the rig too if you want to, but try your mic with the guitar input first and compare.

Just MY $ .02 YMMV

[Darryl Ramm]

And to expand my post... if your mic has a volume knob like a real green bullet does then I would use the Guitar input (and turn the mic's volume down if needed) if not the benefit of using the mic preamp is your have a gain knob and pad switch there to tame a particularly hot signal. But the guitar input can handle active guitar pickups etc. so hopefully works fine... but the original complaint of overloading/distortion seems a bit weird. You need to solve that first/make sure it is not input clipping.

The meters at the right end of the rig chain in the rig view on the Eleven Rack front panel are handy for seeing the levels at input and output.

[bluzeharp]

@ Cowboy Bob: Best answer so far... factual rather than speculative. You seem to understand the relationship a hi-z mic has with a typical guitar input, and it sounds like you've successfully used the guitar input with a hi-z mic. So now I've confirmed it's either a matter of sorting out the correct settings, or possibly that my new Eleven Rack has a manufacturing defect. I'll borrow a guitar to test the latter if I can't sort it out using a hi-z mic.

Further Qualifier: I own the Harmonica Planet.com website, have fabricated custom mic's for harp players for around 40 years. Over those years have jacked thousands of hi-z mic's into guitar amps and effect pedals. I'm familiar with the typical quirks and relationships when doing so Bob, actually have several Shure 585's in my shop, it was James Cotton's go-to mic for most of his career... there are also lo-z versions of the 585.

Yes, I plan to go through the manual as you and Daryl have suggested, but time resources are particularly tight at the moment and was hoping someone out there could provide a shortcut.

Daryl, thanks for the "Rig Input" info, good to know. The xlr mic input on the Eleven Rack is a standard lo-z input, not hi-z as you stated. The hi-z mic's used by amplified harmonica players won't work properly through that input without adding a matching transformer to the signal chain.

[bluzeharp]

The other half of my original question still remains... anyone out there try using the Eleven Rack as a modeling/effects box for amplified harmonica?

If so did you find it to be viable?

[DonaldR]

11R is one of the best guitar amp modeler, so if your harmonica is working well with a real guitar amp then there's no reason it won't work with 11R.

It took me awhile to get a decent sound out of the 11R. The problem is that contrary to other modelers, 11R is replicating the same control behavior as the real amp. What I mean by that is if you know the real amp, the controls will be identical and reacting the same way. So boosting bass on one amp will not boost bass the same way on another amp, same with mid, treble, presence, gain, master or whatever knob on the real amp. So learn how to get a good sound from the real amp (check on internet for a start) and you'll be able to get a good sound on that same amp model out of 11R.

The other thing to consider is where the output of your 11R is going to: guitar combo amp, guitar head+speaker, PA speaker, studio monitors, etc. If you'r going PA/monitors then you will need to play with mic parameters and add parametric eq to get it sound right.