5.1 mix for a messed up theater!

[davealbert]

I need to vent!!

I'm doing a 5.1 mix for a 15 minute mini movie that will play for several years in its own dedicated theater.

The theater was just finished, and the mix was Done. (or so I thought). The center channel is behind the screen. I thought that would be fine but the screen doesn't seem to be the type that is Audio transparent!
It sounds like it looks. A blanket over my center channel with 90% of the Dialog in it!

Whats worse is the Left & Right front speakers are spaced way to far apart, so when I told the receiver that there was no center speaker to let it downmix the center to the stereo LR. It was way to wide off the screen. The phantom center sweet spot is very small.

The people in charge know they screwed up but want me to fix it in the mix somehow as opening day will soon be here, and the budget is gone.

With the Wide layout of the speakers, I really need something in the center to pull it into the picture, so first I'm going to remix the dialog out to the LR. and then try a heavily filtered center signal with lots of upper mid & highs just to pull things to center?

This is a long shot and may not work at all. I've warned them that if they play any other movies in this room It will never sound right.

Thanks for listening.
Dave

[Eric L]

Hi Dave, I feel your pain. In another life I used to install sound systems to support public video playback. Anything from a video wall in a mall to large IMAG screens at concerts. One consistant thing was that the video people never thought about audio until it was too late. I found myself in the same exact situation you are in a couple years ago in Geneva doing a surround sound mix for a very high end presentation for Motorolla. The only thing we could do was move the center speaker above the screen and point it down.

I relied on the fact that the average listener can not localize sound direction as well on the vertical plane as they can on the horizontal. If you send the dialogue out to left and right and the speakers are as wide as you say, only about 10% of your audience will hear that coming from the center. Thank you Hass effect. (Precedence effect). Using a center speaker, even a high one, will get you better results than trying to blow through a screen. Also, as the listener gets further from the screen, the less they will be affected by the height of the speaker.

Good luck, and insist on this. You should not be held responsible for their bad planning. Make them figure out a way to move that speaker.

[davealbert]

Thanks Eric,

I'll find out today if i can sneak in some of the filtered center behind the screen or not. Maybe I can rig up a center above or below the screen to see & show them how that sounds.

By the way the speakers are contractor series--JBL Control 28 for the LCR. JBL Control 25av for the Surrounds. And a Tannoy TS10 for a sub. The screen is about 16x8 feet? The Left / Right front speakers must be at least 6' to either side of the screen! Very wide as the room is only about 40' deep.

The room seats about 100? just a guess.

Dave

[David Sandwisch]

I did an install with the JBL Control 28 series and I had to put the center channel above the screen and it worked just fine. However if the screen is as big as you say and the audience is about 100 people, I just don't think the JBL's would do very well wherever they are placed. Perhaps your mix would sound better if they bought better speakers. The JBL's are extremely cheap, new speakers should definitly help your mix. At least they should try the JBL AE series. They have more power and sound way better by comparrision. Also you said that the show will be used for several years in a dedicated space. Try to convince the customer to spend the money so that he/she will get the most out of all those years. I feel your frustration.

[Eric L]

If there is room, put all three front speakers above the screen in their proper horizontal positions. This will give you a more consistant sound field. 6' wide off the screen means the left and right are 28 feet apart in a room that is only 40 feet deep!!! I wouldn't accept that if I were you. I also agree that those speakers are a little too small for that kind of space. Good luck.

[dr sound]

Dave,
How the hell are Control 28's gonna fill a room that big? That is the wrong choice. Whoever you got the screen from ask to return it for a perforated screen. That is a F... up that needs to be dealt with. Be polite but be firm! You've got a very nice size screen so use it to it's best. There is no fix using what you have. Is it bad communication or lack of experience? Whatever it is it needs to be fixed!
Here are a set of speakers you need to use in a room that size:
http://www.jblpro.com/cinema/2way_SA.htm

[davealbert]

Thanks for confirmation that this setup is as bad as I thought. This is my first theater mix and I was looking forward to a correct room setup that might translate all the effort & client changes!!

I finally found out the specs on the screen and it doesn’t have sound perforations. (It was an option) so a speaker shouldn’t be put behind it. Again, this wouldn’t be so bad if the LR weren’t so W----I----D----E-.

I talked to an upper Management non tech guy today about the problem’s & possible solutions, but when I mentioned putting a center speaker above or even below their beautiful screen he look horrified!

I haven’t even brought up the cheap speakers yet. I’m torn as to bite my tongue, smile and take the money, or let the higher up’s know that they don’t have a dolby digital theater.

I think I’ll raise hell! “He said as he pop’s another one”

[davealbert]

Marti,

Thanks I'll check your link. I was contracted for the 5.1 mix by the Video house that shot & edited the movie. There is a seperate company thats doing all the installation, & I assume the gear choices. I got into the mix late in the game. (so to speak)

[davealbert]

?? If I get them to change out the screen, but they don't chang the speakers, Will it really matter?

looking for as much ammo as i can get here.

Thanks
Dave

[Eric L]

Dave,

What exactly is the venue and what are the client expectations? Is there money behind this project? You are indeed in a tough spot. Your name will be in the sound credits, not the install guys. So you should push as hard as you can without pissing anyone off. If speaker placement above the screen is not acceptable by the client, they need to be presented with all their options as soon as possible. I know from past experiences that it also comes down to budget. In a perfect situation you would have a perf screen and speakers like those suggested by dr. sound. That will be pricey compared to the current set-up you have described.

However, this is the responsibility of the install company. They can get larger speakers, even if they are not cinema speakers. There are many installs in museums, aquariums and other public places that hang speakers above the screen. The Long Beach Aquarium is one of them. As a film mixer, I hate the way it sounds. As a past live sound mixer, I understand the reason. The sooner you point out to the client that their current design will not work, the sooner they can figure something out. Remind them of all the hard work you have put in and the money they have spent already. To not spend more to do the job right, then it all has been a waste of time.

By the way, it will be more expensive to get a perf screen that size, than to get larger speakers and hang them over the screen. So guess which they will probably choose. Doing something on the cheap, always sounds that way to those who know what to listen for.

Good luck.