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  #1  
Old 02-15-2018, 04:19 AM
TNM TNM is offline
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Default DAAAAAAMN, vienna ensemble is epicly awesome! keep my imac?

Hi!

So far i have only used VE Pro6 Demo on the same macbook pro I have pro tools on. I never really realised till I gave it a proper run today just how clever it is.

Look, if you have PT at 64 sample and no buffer, it's not worth using, cause it maxes out all 8 cores just by being active, on 1 instrument track, with no plugins anywhere.

But if you add 1 buffer it becomes usable.. so 64 PT buffer + 64 on VEPro means you play VE PRO vsti's at 128 buffer. BUT.. usage still a bit high when you start adding a lot of instruments.

If you want to work at 64, the compromise is the default 2 buffers so 192 total, if you have PT at 128 then 1 buffer works fine for all scenarios..

With a really good interface like thunderbolt apollo, the output latency at 128 buffer is like 3.1 ms.. so even doubling that with VE Pro, means you only have 6.2 ms latency to play your VI's, which is still totally acceptable except maybe for piano and drums.

Anyway.. the special stuff..and i have tested all timing against the click and it is rock solid..

1) You can add any plugin in VE Pro and if it has latency, it is automatically updated in PT PDC readout. How clever is that!

2) I love the way it's so easy to use and just select any output for any instrument with one click.. and just assign an aux in pro tools corresponding to the VEpro input.. works perfectly...

3) No more plugin wrapping, cause i can assign the pro tools plugin to a 32 bit VE server and use my ageing 32 bit plugins like the irreplaceable quadrasid. because it's so easy to select midi channels it also means using all 4 "sid voices" of quadrasid is dead easy.

So what i am thinking, and the point of this topic..
when i buy my new computer, i was going to sell my imac 3.4ghz i7 quad (2600k basically), 32gb ram. But, i hate 4 and 5k screens with audio like you wouldn't believe.. i just wanted to get two 2560*1400 27" screens for my coming mac or PC.

So.. why don't I keep the imac as a screen, since it's 2560*1400, then just buy a second 2560*1400 for like $300 from kogan...

I can put the imac in target screen mode, that imac is completely silent even right in your face.. it was the quietest imac ever made till the imac pro.

AND... since it's got an ethernet on it built in, say i get a mac pro, i presume i'd buy a TBolt to ethernet adapter and i could literally hook the imac up as a VE Pro slave?

This means i could offload really intensive stuff like kontakt to the slave, because kontakt hates pro tools.

has anyone used their imac as a display for another computer, BUT also as a VE Pro slave? I presume it would work with screen sharing and i could just swipe to see the imac's desktop/apps and then back to the mac pro?

The big question is, how much latency in the real world does this all add.. assume zero latency plugins here until mixdown time.. i even set the convolution in kontakt to zero as i hate extra latency in VI;s/. and that's basically my worry.. can an ethernet VE Pro have low enough latency to actually play VI's with a keyboard comfortably?

Cheers and please feel free to add any thoughts of your own to this topic, and what you use VE pro for.
On the same computer i think it's kind of pointless, cause you have to put the buffer at a point where pro tools is managing just fine on it's own anyway....

But to harness the power of a computer just sitting there otherwise not being used.. it seems to make A LOT of sense.

cheers, going off now to see if i can host just effects over audio on VE Pro.. that would be good to offload things like h reverb to the slave.. latency won't matter in that case.
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  #2  
Old 02-15-2018, 08:06 AM
TNM TNM is offline
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Default maybe not so awesome after all :(

well there goes that idea..

Do people that say, unequivocally, that "anyone who knows pro tools and uses VIs, knows VE Pro is the only way"

actually USED it at low buffers settings in PT?

I tried something..

Remember my DSP test where i got 16 instrument tracks of a certain AAX plugin playing 4 note chords at 8 poly setting? Pro tools buffer was 128?

Well, i have added the exact same patch to VE Pro..

Created a BLANK pro tools project.

I have put a vienna ensemble instrument host and connected to the server.

I have pro tools buffer at 64.

I have chosen a buffer of 1 in VE Pro.. so total latency is 128

I have created just 4 of these instruments.

I have created 4 midi channels in pro tools, each corresponding to ve channel 1/2/3/4

I have copied the same 4 note 32 bar chord progression to the 4 midi tracks.

I have created 4 aux inputs. I have output those through VE server to 1.2, 3.4, 5.6, 7.8 in ascending order for each instrument.

I have pressed play in pro tools.

ALL 8 threads on *pro tools* meter have completely maxed out and it will not play back.

Setting the buffer in VEP to 4x, as in 256 samples, does not help. Can not play back.

I set the buffer to 128 in Pro tools and 0 in VE Pro. Will not play back.

I set buffer to 128 in pro tools and 1 in VE Pro. Will play back with spikes on main core of 50% ish.

I set buffer to 128 in pro tools and 2 in VE Pro. Now it settles down.

That means that if i arm a midi track in pro tools, and it outputs from the pro tools VE plugin, it will be subject to the 128 samples in pro tools settings, and an additional 256 samples in VE Pro.
384 samples.

The kicker is, when the overloads were occurring, i did NOT have the VE pro record armed.. it was only playing back pre recorded midi clips on pro tools timeline.

YET, i can arm 16, yes, 16 of the native AAX plugin of the same instrument, same patch, same midi file in Pro tools itself.. and it spreads the load perfectly, is about 90%, but plays back perfectly.

So can someone please explain the advantage of using VE Pro on the same machine as PT, as many have claimed?

Or maybe these people are not using PT 11 or 12 with the new engine.

That said, as i have stated elsewhere, PT 12.8 has ruined something especially in el cap and sierra.. crazy spikes at low buffers... multiplying single plugins across all cores (not splitting the load, *multiplying*).

So i have to ask.. do these pro tools spikes happen when it is hosting VE Pro over a network on another machine?

I really would so appreciate an answer to this.. I would hate to spend 220 euro on VE Pro, and have to put the ethernet machine at like 512 buffer.. it will totally make the whole thing pointless..

I'd much rather just keep pro tools at 128 and use anything I want.

Look, it's great that a VE pro crash can't bring down PT itself.. all that is wonderful..

yet, there is no easy way to use it as just an fx server (other than "they are working on it bit it's not a priority".. and performance with pro tools at keyboard playable buffers on the same machine, is unusable.

So.. i guess i have to change my title as i am completely disillusioned with it now.

PS i will try with a few different instrument plugins in Ve pro to be 100% confident this finding is correct. Perhaps it is a problem with sierra/PT2018/VEP combo and shouldn't be happening.
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  #3  
Old 02-15-2018, 06:06 PM
TNM TNM is offline
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Default Re: DAAAAAAMN, vienna ensemble is epicly awesome! keep my imac?

nope, cubase and logic both have shocking performance when using VE Pro on the same machine..

8 servers in ve pro, using 1 core each, uses more of logic and cubase's cpu than using 8 instruments in the DAWs directly.

except.. the daws are set at 128, and ve pro is 128 x 2.

LOL.

What completely useless software when using on the same machine.

Only use for VE pro I can see:

1)to be able to play 32 bit plugins from any 64 bit daw

2) To use it on an entirely separate slave machine.

I have concluded, and yes i DO know what i am doing with performance tests, that using ve pro on the same computer will actually far lower your polyphony count, than simply using the same Vi's directly in pro tools 12/2018, as long as you keep your pro tools buffer 128 or higher, or 256 or higher at 88/96k.

peace. We can close this.. as all i need to find out now is the slave server latency, and i've started a topic about that at VSL.
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  #4  
Old 04-26-2018, 06:55 PM
JamesPDX JamesPDX is offline
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Default Re: DAAAAAAMN, vienna ensemble is epicly awesome! keep my imac?

Yep, VEP6 is the shizzle. It's the best investment I've ever made for a VI.

I'm using a couple of 2012 Mini's for this. One for PT2018.4, the other just to run the VEP6 server/slave.

I'm mostly using it with a 3-instance orchestral template, but I can assure you that when using ethernet a buffer setting of 1 per instance, and a Playback Engine setting of 128 for my Apollo 8, there is no difference in latency when running Slate drums on the remote machine compared to running it as its own plugin inside of Pro Tools. Sames goes for the UVI Fazioli.

If you can hang onto your iMac, it would make a great VEP Server/remote machine. Just use SSDs if you can.

If you want an orchestral template, PM me.
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  #5  
Old 04-27-2018, 04:53 AM
musicman691 musicman691 is offline
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Default Re: DAAAAAAMN, vienna ensemble is epicly awesome! keep my imac?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesPDX View Post
Yep, VEP6 is the shizzle. It's the best investment I've ever made for a VI.

I'm using a couple of 2012 Mini's for this. One for PT2018.4, the other just to run the VEP6 server/slave.

I'm mostly using it with a 3-instance orchestral template, but I can assure you that when using ethernet a buffer setting of 1 per instance, and a Playback Engine setting of 128 for my Apollo 8, there is no difference in latency when running Slate drums on the remote machine compared to running it as its own plugin inside of Pro Tools. Sames goes for the UVI Fazioli.

If you can hang onto your iMac, it would make a great VEP Server/remote machine. Just use SSDs if you can.

If you want an orchestral template, PM me.
When I still had my iMac up & running I did the two machine thing with the iMac as the slave and the cheesegrater as master with PT. Loved it especially when I used screen sharing on the iMac so all I had to do is to look at the screen connected to the master.

I have to wonder how things would work with more than two computers. Would going through a router introduce any latency?
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  #6  
Old 07-27-2018, 02:29 PM
JamesPDX JamesPDX is offline
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Default Re: DAAAAAAMN, vienna ensemble is epicly awesome! keep my imac?

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
When I still had my iMac up & running I did the two machine thing with the iMac as the slave and the cheesegrater as master with PT. Loved it especially when I used screen sharing on the iMac so all I had to do is to look at the screen connected to the master.

I have to wonder how things would work with more than two computers. Would going through a router introduce any latency?


Sorry this is so late. It'll be fine. Just know that you'll have to choose which VSL instruments/bundles you want to run on whatever ever remote machine. For the VSL orchestral stuff, the bundles/packages have to move as a group, so you can't just peel off on instrument section from for one bundle for one machine and another part of that same bundle for another machine. You have to manage what's gonna go where via the e-Licenser app or iLok, or whatever dongle your VI is glued-to. Multi machines via ethernet are the way to go!
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  #7  
Old 08-02-2018, 02:03 AM
Franklyn Franklyn is offline
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Default Re: DAAAAAAMN, vienna ensemble is epicly awesome! keep my imac?

1. Yes, I also like VEP very much and I must say they programmed there software better than anyone else !!!

2. it makes absolute sense to run VEP on the same computer. because VEP is the only VST host that translate all delay compensation absolute in the right place. f.e. NI Maschine is not usable as AAX. the biggest problem is that the "internal" sequencer of many VSTs drummer (like the internal patterns of Maschine or the the internal midi player of some other Drumsynths) are not correct compensated with ADC as a AAX plug in.
Most VST Manufaktur are not able to program this right (Toontrack f.e. do it right. FX Pansion/NI do not)).
also all internal patterns of Kontakt Instruments are not correct in time compensated.
this is the reason why I use Maschine in VEP on the same computer.

3. You say:
"With a really good interface like thunderbolt apollo, the output latency at 128 buffer is like 3.1 ms."
yes, but the overall Latency on a native system is about 8-9ms @128buffer. also with the "fastest" interface. your apollo can nothing do against the native latency.
apollo interfaces are not really faster than others.
the apollo advantage is only working when you use it "beside" your DAW in UAD "Console". here you can get that promised 2ms Latency, because the signal has not to go over your native system. this is nothing other than a direct monitoring mode (most interfaces have this).

4. I agreee with everything else you say ! :)

I love VEP
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  #8  
Old 08-28-2018, 09:05 AM
TNM TNM is offline
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Default Re: DAAAAAAMN, vienna ensemble is epicly awesome! keep my imac?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesPDX View Post
Yep, VEP6 is the shizzle. It's the best investment I've ever made for a VI.

I'm using a couple of 2012 Mini's for this. One for PT2018.4, the other just to run the VEP6 server/slave.

I'm mostly using it with a 3-instance orchestral template, but I can assure you that when using ethernet a buffer setting of 1 per instance, and a Playback Engine setting of 128 for my Apollo 8, there is no difference in latency when running Slate drums on the remote machine compared to running it as its own plugin inside of Pro Tools. Sames goes for the UVI Fazioli.

If you can hang onto your iMac, it would make a great VEP Server/remote machine. Just use SSDs if you can.

If you want an orchestral template, PM me.
Hi, i'm absolutely keeping my 2011 imac.. and having the 2600 cleaned and repasted with some top quality paste, as well as removing the 7200 drive and the 256 crappy SSD and putting in 2 x 1 TB ssd. Keeping the optical drive.

It's going to function as a second screen and of course in the background be used for VE Pro.. Since I can not find a use for VE Pro on the same mac, i decided to make use of the extra one I have, as i'll get probably less selling it second hand than I spent just to upgrade the ram LOL.

Not one person answered any question i asked at VSL forums..

so, since you ARE using it on a separate machine, can you tell me what latency setting you use and buffer multiplier, so what your effective real latency is if you want to make some changes, say, to an instrument being hosted on the slave machine, and need it to temporarily go "live", to play it back from your keyboard controller?

The way I thought I would do it, is use any VI's initially on my imac pro, then once the part is composed, offload it to the slave.. But of course there will be times I want to make changes and play in a new melody and things.. This is why I ask what the real world usable latency of VE Pro is on a slave machine.. i can't believe that information was impossible to find after hours of searching.
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  #9  
Old 08-28-2018, 09:12 AM
TNM TNM is offline
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Default Re: DAAAAAAMN, vienna ensemble is epicly awesome! keep my imac?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franklyn View Post
1. Yes, I also like VEP very much and I must say they programmed there software better than anyone else !!!

2. it makes absolute sense to run VEP on the same computer. because VEP is the only VST host that translate all delay compensation absolute in the right place. f.e. NI Maschine is not usable as AAX. the biggest problem is that the "internal" sequencer of many VSTs drummer (like the internal patterns of Maschine or the the internal midi player of some other Drumsynths) are not correct compensated with ADC as a AAX plug in.
Most VST Manufaktur are not able to program this right (Toontrack f.e. do it right. FX Pansion/NI do not)).
also all internal patterns of Kontakt Instruments are not correct in time compensated.
this is the reason why I use Maschine in VEP on the same computer.

3. You say:
"With a really good interface like thunderbolt apollo, the output latency at 128 buffer is like 3.1 ms."
yes, but the overall Latency on a native system is about 8-9ms @128buffer. also with the "fastest" interface. your apollo can nothing do against the native latency.
apollo interfaces are not really faster than others.
the apollo advantage is only working when you use it "beside" your DAW in UAD "Console". here you can get that promised 2ms Latency, because the signal has not to go over your native system. this is nothing other than a direct monitoring mode (most interfaces have this).

4. I agreee with everything else you say ! :)

I love VEP
Only output latency matters when playing VI's, which is why that's what I mentioned. The total roundtrip has nothing to do with it.

At 128 buffer, the apollo OUTPUT latency is amongst the very fastest on the planet.. the input latency makes the roundtrip too high for full DAW monitoring of external sources, which is why they created their own console app.

Even when using VE Pro, only the output latency matters.. If pro tools is set at 64 samples, in apollo that's like 2ms, and VE pro is set to 0 buffers, that means any time you press a key of an instrument track in pro tools being sent to VE Pro, you get 2ms before you hear the sound.

Same with slave machines.

Of course, in the real world, it just doesn't perform well at those settings, which is why i was asking what real world ve pro *usable* latency is.

Intersting about AAX with internal sequencer.. I was using sugar bytes effectrix, the AAX, as an insert effect, and it was all out of time once i had a plugin with latency before it.. But in Cubase and Logic it was perfect.. So this must be the same issue as such as what you are describing.
Are you saying it only happens when there is ADC needed?

Or do you mean NI stuff doesn't sync up at all properly to begin with?

It's these little things, and the fact I have to use wrappers for so many plugins, that grates about pro tools. But i still love it too much.
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  #10  
Old 08-31-2018, 05:18 AM
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Emcha_audio Emcha_audio is offline
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Default Re: maybe not so awesome after all :(

Quote:
Originally Posted by TNM View Post
well there goes that idea..

Do people that say, unequivocally, that "anyone who knows pro tools and uses VIs, knows VE Pro is the only way"

actually USED it at low buffers settings in PT?

I tried something..

Remember my DSP test where i got 16 instrument tracks of a certain AAX plugin playing 4 note chords at 8 poly setting? Pro tools buffer was 128?

Well, i have added the exact same patch to VE Pro..

Created a BLANK pro tools project.

I have put a vienna ensemble instrument host and connected to the server.

I have pro tools buffer at 64.

I have chosen a buffer of 1 in VE Pro.. so total latency is 128

I have created just 4 of these instruments.

I have created 4 midi channels in pro tools, each corresponding to ve channel 1/2/3/4

I have copied the same 4 note 32 bar chord progression to the 4 midi tracks.

I have created 4 aux inputs. I have output those through VE server to 1.2, 3.4, 5.6, 7.8 in ascending order for each instrument.

I have pressed play in pro tools.

ALL 8 threads on *pro tools* meter have completely maxed out and it will not play back.

Setting the buffer in VEP to 4x, as in 256 samples, does not help. Can not play back.

I set the buffer to 128 in Pro tools and 0 in VE Pro. Will not play back.

I set buffer to 128 in pro tools and 1 in VE Pro. Will play back with spikes on main core of 50% ish.

I set buffer to 128 in pro tools and 2 in VE Pro. Now it settles down.

That means that if i arm a midi track in pro tools, and it outputs from the pro tools VE plugin, it will be subject to the 128 samples in pro tools settings, and an additional 256 samples in VE Pro.
384 samples.

The kicker is, when the overloads were occurring, i did NOT have the VE pro record armed.. it was only playing back pre recorded midi clips on pro tools timeline.

YET, i can arm 16, yes, 16 of the native AAX plugin of the same instrument, same patch, same midi file in Pro tools itself.. and it spreads the load perfectly, is about 90%, but plays back perfectly.

So can someone please explain the advantage of using VE Pro on the same machine as PT, as many have claimed?

Or maybe these people are not using PT 11 or 12 with the new engine.

That said, as i have stated elsewhere, PT 12.8 has ruined something especially in el cap and sierra.. crazy spikes at low buffers... multiplying single plugins across all cores (not splitting the load, *multiplying*).

So i have to ask.. do these pro tools spikes happen when it is hosting VE Pro over a network on another machine?

I really would so appreciate an answer to this.. I would hate to spend 220 euro on VE Pro, and have to put the ethernet machine at like 512 buffer.. it will totally make the whole thing pointless..

I'd much rather just keep pro tools at 128 and use anything I want.

Look, it's great that a VE pro crash can't bring down PT itself.. all that is wonderful..

yet, there is no easy way to use it as just an fx server (other than "they are working on it bit it's not a priority".. and performance with pro tools at keyboard playable buffers on the same machine, is unusable.

So.. i guess i have to change my title as i am completely disillusioned with it now.

PS i will try with a few different instrument plugins in Ve pro to be 100% confident this finding is correct. Perhaps it is a problem with sierra/PT2018/VEP combo and shouldn't be happening.
That stinks.. and it makes me wonder how I was able to work with 30 or so independent VI tracks yesterday night with my i3 2500 quad core (no hyperthreading)
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