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  #11  
Old 01-31-2015, 10:09 PM
WKG WKG is offline
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Default Re: Does PT12 bring value

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Originally Posted by deanrichard View Post
To me, it seems like Avid is betting the farm on this subscription model. We'll see how it plays out. I know I won't be a subscriber, but I'm not their target customer.

Dean
The forum here represents a fairly small percentage of total consumers and has been pretty vocal about this issue. Avid's problem will be the larger, silent number that just goes away...
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  #12  
Old 01-31-2015, 10:30 PM
capt kirk capt kirk is offline
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Default Re: Does PT12 bring value

or the guy like me , who has a dedicated imac, with a fixed os/PT combination that works perfectly and WILL NEVER upgrade to a service plan, monthly fee thing....this is the paradox the guys like adobe avid and FCP have created, they made it work too good , and now no one REALLY needs anymore stuff, so to continue on they either destroy it and start fresh , like FCP, or they go for subscription models and hope enough suckers jump on board....
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  #13  
Old 02-01-2015, 09:34 AM
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Eric Lambert Eric Lambert is offline
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Default Re: Does PT12 bring value

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Originally Posted by Bill Denton View Post
What is, again, my opinion only...

The only reason for PT 12 is to kill PT 11, and more especially, those PT 11 licenses that were sold before the service plan model went into effect.

Killing PT 11 will also "kill" the last bit of Avid's accounting issues...
Agreed - it's "a greed."

I've had so much valid and working hardware and software forcibly resigned due to these tactics.
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  #14  
Old 02-01-2015, 09:38 AM
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Eric Lambert Eric Lambert is offline
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Default Re: Does PT12 bring value

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Originally Posted by WKG View Post
The forum here represents a fairly small percentage of total consumers and has been pretty vocal about this issue. Avid's problem will be the larger, silent number that just goes away...
Besides those who are leaving the platform, there are those who are simply uninterested from the beginning, which wasn't always the case when PT/Avid had a stronger rep.

This year my habit of bringing industry newcomers into the world of ProTools - helping them understand the app and how it works - has changed. My new default advice is: if you value your paycheck do *not* buy into ProTools. The hidden fees will consume you.
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  #15  
Old 02-01-2015, 10:45 AM
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Default Re: Does PT12 bring value

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Originally Posted by Bill Denton View Post
I'm getting this feeling that AVID is trying to do away with perpetual licenses and make it subscription/rental only.

Could be, but personally, I doubt it...

Accounting-wise, there is no problem with perpetual licenses per se...the problem is the de facto "open-ended" service contract created by Avid's maintenance/updating process.

(Note regarding the following...this gets into some accounting methods/rules/whatever that I do not know much about. I am not an accountant, nor do I have a business-related degree. But, for most of my career my day-job has been in what one might term "ordinary" business...companies that make stuff or offer services. In IT, you tend to learn a little about a lot of things in order to write the appropriate software. So, some of this next little bit is not something I've extensively studied...it's just stuff I've picked up on as part of my day job. And some of this may be incorrect.)

Suppose I have a company that makes hammers, and sells them directly to consumers via the Internet.

The hammers I sell are well-designed and well-built...good quality tools that come with a one-year warranty...I sell them for $10.00...it costs me $7.00 to make them.

So, it would appear that every time I sell a hammer I would make a profit of $3.00. But, there's that pesky one-year warranty, and, as I understand it, I would need to hold some part of the $3.00 profit in reserve to cover the cost of warranty repairs and replacements. Let's suppose it's $0.25 per hammer.

So, when I sold a hammer, I could only "count" $2.75 as profit. But, since the warranty was only for a year, after that year was up, I could "count" the $0.25 as profit.

(Again, this is a greatly simplified explanation, it may not be 100% correct, and it may not be applicable to Avid. But I personally believe it's pretty close...)

In my hammer company's case, since I only offered a one-year warranty, I only had to hold the reserve for one year.

But, in Avid's case, they were selling products that had a de facto "open-ended" service plan that lasted forever ("open-ended"). If they weren't "accounting" for reserves or whatever in accordance with "accepted standards", they could/would have problems.

But, by moving to a "service plan" model, Avid moved to a "fixed-term" support agreement, and got away from the previous "open-ended" contracts.

(I believe the "rental" thing that Avid is also doing may be due to the changing market, but a "rental's" service contract is also "fixed-term"...limited to the length of the "rental".

This is why I keep "going on" about the accounting issues...it's only by understanding them can the user appreciate what's going on.

There's more, but I have other things to do right now...perhaps I'll post some additional info another time...

(And again, it's all just my personal opinion and belief)
I'm not going to argue with this more than this post; but if you take a look at your story and compare it to Avid's offerings, wouldn't you agree that Avid would account that "warranty" part of your equation of "0.25 per hammer" with this new support plan thing?
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  #16  
Old 02-01-2015, 12:51 PM
Bill Denton Bill Denton is offline
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Default Re: Does PT12 bring value

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Originally Posted by JFreak View Post
I'm not going to argue with this more than this post; but if you take a look at your story and compare it to Avid's offerings, wouldn't you agree that Avid would account that "warranty" part of your equation of "0.25 per hammer" with this new support plan thing?
You're part way there...

The $0.25 per hammer would cover it for the length of the one year warranty. And most anybody with a statistical background could tell you the percentage of hammers that would have zero warranty returns, one warranty return, two warranty returns, etc., for the one year "fixed term" warranty. You could then arrive at an "amount per hammer" you needed for reserves. Of course, you would have to maintain those reserves.

But...suppose the hammer was guaranteed forever...this would be an "open ended" warranty. Keep in mind that, even though they may have been bought and sold several times, there are tool companies in the US that have been around for a century or more (some in Europe even longer).

So, how would you calculate how many hammers you would have to replace in "X" years if you had no way of knowing how log "X" is? How would you calculate the "warranty return percentages" over an unknown period of time? How would you know how much of a "reserve" amount was needed? And what if you had received some bad information from your accountants, and had not been keeping any reserves at all?

From what I have read and understand, Avid found themselves in some or all of this position.

The service plan creates a "fixed term" warranty, Avid could then calculate what reserves are required, and, now that they know they are required, they could then start maintaining them...keep in mind that Avid did replace their accounting firm while all of this was going on.

And while one may have existed, how many of us knew about Avid's "End of Life/Service/Sale/whatever" policy prior to the "Pro Control / Control 24" issue? Did it really even matter before then?

As I said, you are part way there, but you have to look at the whole equation...
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Note that all opinions, observations, whatever, in this post are mine, unless I'm being mean or am wrong, in which case it's somebody else's fault. I do not work for Avid (their loss)...my only relationship with Avid is that of a customer (when I'm not too poor to buy stuff, like now)...and that hot administrative assistant...that's more of a "thing" than a "relationship" (that should keep them guessing for a while...)

Just rockin'...what more is there?

Bill in Pittsburgh
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  #17  
Old 02-01-2015, 02:32 PM
SDDP SDDP is offline
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Default Re: Does PT12 bring value

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Originally Posted by Bill Denton View Post
You're part way there...

The $0.25 per hammer would cover it for the length of the one year warranty. And most anybody with a statistical background could tell you the percentage of hammers that would have zero warranty returns, one warranty return, two warranty returns, etc., for the one year "fixed term" warranty. You could then arrive at an "amount per hammer" you needed for reserves. Of course, you would have to maintain those reserves.

But...suppose the hammer was guaranteed forever...this would be an "open ended" warranty. Keep in mind that, even though they may have been bought and sold several times, there are tool companies in the US that have been around for a century or more (some in Europe even longer).

So, how would you calculate how many hammers you would have to replace in "X" years if you had no way of knowing how log "X" is? How would you calculate the "warranty return percentages" over an unknown period of time? How would you know how much of a "reserve" amount was needed? And what if you had received some bad information from your accountants, and had not been keeping any reserves at all?

From what I have read and understand, Avid found themselves in some or all of this position.

The service plan creates a "fixed term" warranty, Avid could then calculate what reserves are required, and, now that they know they are required, they could then start maintaining them...keep in mind that Avid did replace their accounting firm while all of this was going on.

And while one may have existed, how many of us knew about Avid's "End of Life/Service/Sale/whatever" policy prior to the "Pro Control / Control 24" issue? Did it really even matter before then?

As I said, you are part way there, but you have to look at the whole equation...
So why not put in a lot of R&D, takes customers feedback/ideas (in this case ideascale) and make a hammer that is extremely high quality, error free, excellence in workmanship with all the applied customer feedback and R&D so that no hammers need replacement despite the 1 year warranty. And just concentrate on making bigger better hammers?
And Making bigger toolboxes with more refined, efficient, lighter, faster tools and just charge customers for the newer product?
Or is that too simple and logical to apply?
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  #18  
Old 02-01-2015, 03:37 PM
Bill Denton Bill Denton is offline
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Default Re: Does PT12 bring value

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Originally Posted by SDDP View Post
So why not put in a lot of R&D, takes customers feedback/ideas (in this case ideascale) and make a hammer that is extremely high quality, error free, excellence in workmanship with all the applied customer feedback and R&D so that no hammers need replacement despite the 1 year warranty. And just concentrate on making bigger better hammers?
And Making bigger toolboxes with more refined, efficient, lighter, faster tools and just charge customers for the newer product?
Or is that too simple and logical to apply?
Man...I hate the smell of unicorn poop in the morning.

Or...how many Pro Tools licenses are you planning to buy for $100,000 US each? Especially since, while it does include everything everybody else asked for, it doesn't include the one thing you really wanted?

Avid provides a product that their target market feel meets their needs sufficiently to justify the price they are willing to pay.

And, like it or not, that's the end of that story...
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Note that all opinions, observations, whatever, in this post are mine, unless I'm being mean or am wrong, in which case it's somebody else's fault. I do not work for Avid (their loss)...my only relationship with Avid is that of a customer (when I'm not too poor to buy stuff, like now)...and that hot administrative assistant...that's more of a "thing" than a "relationship" (that should keep them guessing for a while...)

Just rockin'...what more is there?

Bill in Pittsburgh
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  #19  
Old 02-13-2015, 11:10 PM
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Default Re: Does PT12 bring value

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Originally Posted by Barry Johns View Post
You know I've been doing a lot of thinking lately, and when you look all the various ProTools releases up until ProTools 12, you're looking to find f ProTools 12 brings value to me as a user, and then what is the potential beyond this to continue to bring me value? I think when you have to put all that in perspective you have to look backwards a little bit, and then you have to looking forward record to this point.

Obviously for a lot of us the features that it brings, and especially the price point associated with it, is a huge part of what brings value to all of us. It's important that we understand as a business model, it obviously has to make sense to us as an investment strategy as well. We have to consider if ProTools 12 give us something that other versions of ProTools doesn't as well as what is the integrity of the company that we're doing business with?

For me personally to consider does ProTools 12 bring value to me, I think it's important to take a look at the thread below, to really bring it all into context.

http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=363796


Person to truly understand the point I'm trying to make here, I think it's critical that you look at the link above.
Th last really cool upgrade was PT 8 Louis Hernadez should be fired by the board of directors that guy is worst that having Mickey Mouse in charge he has ZERO vision for Pro Tools. Avid has the goose that lays they golden egg and they have no friggin idea what to do with.
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  #20  
Old 02-13-2015, 11:31 PM
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Default Re: Does PT12 bring value

Regardless of feelings, the fact is that perpetual licenses remain perpetual. My iLok holds licenses, not feelings
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