Succesful realtime recording of VIs at low (32, 64) sample buffers in PT11 native?

[yeloop]

Hi guys

I have put a few posts up on this forum and have had some great feedback and advice so far (Darryl Ramm has been particularly helpful). I thought I'd put this new post up to ask a broader question regarding low-latency realtime recording of virtual instruments in PT11 native (on a Mac).

I would love to hear experiences from other users, to get a sense of whether what I am looking for performance-wise is actually achievable, or whether I need to alter my expectations. Specifically, can I reasonably expect to play virtual instruments such as BFD3 and Omnisphere in realtime in PT11, at low buffer sizes (32 or 64 samples), in PT11 native?

A bit of background...
I have been a Logic user since the mid-90s (version 1.5, from memory), and for the most part have had great experiences with Logic over the last 20 years. For quite a while, though, I have been frustrated by Logic's poor implementation of port usage for external MIDI instruments (it's not possible to assign incoming MIDI by physical port, without using clumsy workarounds) as well as some of it's delay compensation problems - again especially with external MIDI gear.
On the other hand, Logic has been brilliant in terms of running virtual instruments with incredibly low latency, as well as monitoring with huge chains of effects in place - either incoming audio or VIs - with no audio glitches. Despite being old, Logic's audio engine has always performed well for very large projects full of effects as well.

When Pro Tools 11 launched, with its new independent buffers for record and playback, and the general response on forums and in reviews that track count and virtual instrument performance was now class-leading rather than poor, I decided that it was time to evaluate Pro Tools at last. Delay compensation is known to be far better than Logic for complex signal chains, as is MIDI implementation (simple port selection for MIDI in and MIDI out for each track).

Hence, I purchased and set up PT11 native on my iMac (late 2013, 3.5GHz i7, 24GB RAM, 1TB internal SSD). I recorded a basic test project (44.1kHz, 24bit) with just a couple of tracks, and then proceeded to record some drums using my V-Drums and BFD3. When playing fast snare rolls, or anything else with a lot of MIDI activity (and hence sample recall) in rapid succession, the sound degrades and produces "that" sound that usually occurs when the sample buffer is too small. The buffer has been set to 32 samples, and then 64 samples, both of which have the same problem. Using a different VI, such as Omnisphere, produces a similar result. Moving up to a buffer of 128 was almost glitch-free, although at times there was some glitching when fast passages were being played.

By way of comparison, the same instruments run in Logic Pro X on my system can be played in realtime without any audio degradation, at a buffer size of 32 samples. (Note - I'm mentioning this not to wave Logic's flag or start a PT vs Logic discussion, but just to give context of the performance I have experienced on the same Mac!)

Given the reviews I have read of PT11 native, my experience of Pro Tools seemed surprising. I had read that virtual instrument track counts, comparable to Logic, were being achieved by real-world PT11 users, the same users who had had very poor VI track performance and track counts in PT10 and earlier versions.

To cover off the troubleshooting I've done so far, I have:
- Disabled Wi-Fi
- Disabled Bluetooth
- Insured my iMac is not set to "spin down" (for want of a better term for an SSD drive!!) hard drives when they are not in use
- Moved my projects to an external drive (WD black drive, 7200 RPM, Mac formatted, journaled etc, over USB3)
- Moved the virtual instrument sample files to an external drive (Samsung SSD, over USB3)
- Ensured all drives are connected to the iMac directly, not via USB hub (which is only used to connect the Mac keyboard/mouse)
- Started from scratch with a new project, rather than a template or existing project
- Turned off the "ignore errors" option in audio engine settings
- Turned off delay compensation by unticking the drop-down menu
- Set up a higher buffer size (128 samples)
- Confirmed that the same virtual instruments are able to be played glitch-free at 32 samples in Logic Pro

And an overview of my setup:
- iMac 3.5GHz i7 quad-core (late 2013, Haswell processor) 24GB RAM, 1TB SSD primary drive - recently purchased for the studio to replace an ageing Mac Pro quad-core.
- RME UFX interface over USB2
- RME UFX Totalmix 0.996 MAC OS X (1)
- Mac OSX 10.9.1
- PT 11.1

And here are the virtual instruments / plug-ins currently installed:
- Omnisphere 1.5.8d
- BFD3 3.0.1 build 1
- NI Battery 4.1.1
- Melodyne 2.1.2
- iZotope Alloy 2.0.2
- iZotope Ozone 5.0.4
- NI Kontakt 5.3.0

In a nutshell - I am still in the "trial phase" of PT11, and would love to make the move permanently for future projects. Having spent a fair bit of time with it already, I am very impressed by the workflow.

However, in the context of our projects, we need super-low latency for live performances using virtual instruments, especially drums - where even at 128 samples buffer, our drummer loses the sense of responsiveness from V-Drums to sound output.

I would love to hear from you if you are running PT11 native on a Mac, and using similar virtual instruments. Are you able to run them at buffers of 32 or 64 samples, or do you also find that buffers below 128 result in audio glitching? Am I being unrealistic in expecting this? (Even though Logic is able to deliver this on the same computer... perhaps Logic's engine is still just better for realtime low-latency performance?)

Looking forward to hearing of people's experiences, or any other optimisation tips I should be trying before deciding to remain with Logic Pro for the moment!

Cheers - and happy new year all!

Mike

[propower]

Hey Mike -

Great post! I do PT11HD with set up in my signature on virtually an identical imac. I am mostly audio tracks so far but I have been using BFD3, Toontrack EZ /superior and Abbey Road Drums via Latest Kontakt (K9 package) as playback instruments all at 96kHz/64 buffer. BFD3 is the biggest CPU user but all of these play without issue... Now this is with a AVID HD Native Thunderbolt (TB) system ( that has much lower latency all around plus tighter integration between hardware and software because its all AVID....

Though I have no experience with the UFX I have some quick comments on your system -
1) USB2 - get rid of this (and any USB2 Hard Drives) and run your UFX from FW400. Get the Apple TB to FW adapter and that may solve your issue right there.

2) Ozone and low buffers - not work well. Alloy is OK but again not well optimized for low buffers. Best low buffer plug ins - All AVID ones, ALL Softube I have tested, NI K9 - not bad, Toontrack is good, BFD3 - mostly good. Now I have yet to do the Digital Drum thing to any of these yet so I am talking playback only for starters.

3) Download xcoode from apple and follow this link for how to turn off hyperthreading. Big help for low buffer work
http://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/vi...hp?f=5&t=88835

4) I am experimenting with following this procedure for turning spotlight off when running PT. Can't say for sure but my early results are showing a serious decrease in CPU load and temps -- follow the directions in the first post...
http://prorecordingworkshop.lefora.c...y#.UsJdA2RDurF

5) I am still on 10.8.4 so can't say what effect 10.9.1 is having...

Best of luck - please write back what if any of this helped....

[YYR123]

Originally Posted by propower

3) Download xcode from apple and follow this link for how to turn off hyperthreading. Big help for low buffer work
http://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/vi...hp?f=5&t=88835

Really? I have never heard this I will have to find out more.

Originally Posted by propower

4) I am experimenting with following this procedure for turning spotlight off when running PT. Can't say for sure but my early results are showing a serious decrease in CPU load and temps -- follow the directions in the first post...
http://prorecordingworkshop.lefora.c...y#.UsJdA2RDurF..

Wow really nice

[yeloop]

Originally Posted by propower

Hey Mike -

Great post! I do PT11HD with set up in my signature on virtually an identical imac. I am mostly audio tracks so far but I have been using BFD3, Toontrack EZ /superior and Abbey Road Drums via Latest Kontakt (K9 package) as playback instruments all at 96kHz/64 buffer. BFD3 is the biggest CPU user but all of these play without issue... Now this is with a AVID HD Native Thunderbolt (TB) system ( that has much lower latency all around plus tighter integration between hardware and software because its all AVID....

Though I have no experience with the UFX I have some quick comments on your system -
1) USB2 - get rid of this (and any USB2 Hard Drives) and run your UFX from FW400. Get the Apple TB to FW adapter and that may solve your issue right there.

2) Ozone and low buffers - not work well. Alloy is OK but again not well optimized for low buffers. Best low buffer plug ins - All AVID ones, ALL Softube I have tested, NI K9 - not bad, Toontrack is good, BFD3 - mostly good. Now I have yet to do the Digital Drum thing to any of these yet so I am talking playback only for starters.

3) Download xcoode from apple and follow this link for how to turn off hyperthreading. Big help for low buffer work
http://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/vi...hp?f=5&t=88835

4) I am experimenting with following this procedure for turning spotlight off when running PT. Can't say for sure but my early results are showing a serious decrease in CPU load and temps -- follow the directions in the first post...
http://prorecordingworkshop.lefora.c...y#.UsJdA2RDurF

5) I am still on 10.8.4 so can't say what effect 10.9.1 is having...

Best of luck - please write back what if any of this helped....

Hey,

Thanks for your thoughts!

I am looking forward to trying PT in the next day or so with hyperthreading disabled, and likewise spotlight search. It would be great if either or both of these were to make a difference to latency.

I might get in touch with RME regarding running the UFX on FW, as they have generally recommended USB2 as the preferred method for good performance, despite the lower bandwidth it offers. RME have really great forum support from key engineers (they are a tiny company) so hopefully they will be able to offer some insight. I might just grab a Thunderbolt to FW adaptor anyway and give it a try myself, to see how this impacts latency in PT... and whether I can perhaps get down to the illusive 64 or 32 samples buffer!

To clarify regarding Ozone and Alloy, and some of the other plugins I mentioned, these are on my system in AAX64 format, but were not used at all in my test project. Only Omnisphere and BFD3 were tested.

Look forward to reporting back with how I go!

In the meantime, I'm keen to hear from others running similar systems, and whether you have had success with 32 or 64 sample buffers for realtime virtual instrument playing!

Cheers and happy NY!
Mike

[yeloop]

Originally Posted by propower

Hey Mike -

Great post! I do PT11HD with set up in my signature on virtually an identical imac. I am mostly audio tracks so far but I have been using BFD3, Toontrack EZ /superior and Abbey Road Drums via Latest Kontakt (K9 package) as playback instruments all at 96kHz/64 buffer. BFD3 is the biggest CPU user but all of these play without issue... Now this is with a AVID HD Native Thunderbolt (TB) system ( that has much lower latency all around plus tighter integration between hardware and software because its all AVID....

Though I have no experience with the UFX I have some quick comments on your system -
1) USB2 - get rid of this (and any USB2 Hard Drives) and run your UFX from FW400. Get the Apple TB to FW adapter and that may solve your issue right there.

2) Ozone and low buffers - not work well. Alloy is OK but again not well optimized for low buffers. Best low buffer plug ins - All AVID ones, ALL Softube I have tested, NI K9 - not bad, Toontrack is good, BFD3 - mostly good. Now I have yet to do the Digital Drum thing to any of these yet so I am talking playback only for starters.

3) Download xcoode from apple and follow this link for how to turn off hyperthreading. Big help for low buffer work
http://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/vi...hp?f=5&t=88835

4) I am experimenting with following this procedure for turning spotlight off when running PT. Can't say for sure but my early results are showing a serious decrease in CPU load and temps -- follow the directions in the first post...
http://prorecordingworkshop.lefora.c...y#.UsJdA2RDurF

5) I am still on 10.8.4 so can't say what effect 10.9.1 is having...

Best of luck - please write back what if any of this helped....

Hey ProPower,

I've had chance to try disabling spotlight and disabling hyper threading (separately) using the instructions you linked to.

Bad news though... at 32 samples, with BFD3 as the test, I am still getting audio glitching pretty severely. Definitely to the point at least where it's unusable for tracking. 64 samples is not as bad, but still not useable for fast repeated sample playing such as snare rolls.

That leaves the final test - running the RME UFX through firewire (via TB) instead of USB. I'll grab a thunderbolt/firewire adaptor from Apple in the next few days and see how this goes!

At this stage I have a feeling that staying with Logic, and using the MIDI port routing workaround in the Environment might be the best way to go, despite how impressed I've been with Pro Tools in other ways.

I'll report back soon!

In the meantime, still keen to hear about other people's experiences with low latency recording in PT11.

Cheers,
Mike

[YYR123]

I will try bfd2 at 32 samples later on tomorrow and see how it sounds

I have bfd3 but I don't have it installed

All on sata3 internal drives - 6gb/sec

[YYR123]

man i can't do it.....

PT10.3.7 and Mac 10.8.4

i cannot record more than 3 bars of 120bpm before i get the -6101 error.
This is at 64 samples

if I up it to 128 i have yet to error out and everything sounds in time.


i have my session at 96khz

[propower]

Sorry to hear of these troubles! I have limited knowledge on any other hardware configs than Metric Halo and AVID... hopefully some others will chime in...

I have been using BFD3 a lot these past few days and it has done fine as a playback engine at 96/64. FWIW Superior Drummer is much lower CPU footprint in this role and might make a better plug in for playing parts - but it has a way different key map and BFD sounds better (to me)... Regardless I will see what I can do to actually record something on the instrument track. Would the little pads on an Axiom keyboard or even just keying in the part on the Axiom be enough of a test??

----

Also, Mike,
Had a chance to try the FW adapter yet??

[guitardom]

OP,
An FYI, BFD was updated last week. 3.0.2.8 the license manager has been updated as well.

Have you changed some settings in BFD in experimentation like dropping the velocity layers a bit, loading the samples to ram, set it to 16 bit for tracking? You have a lot of performance options in BFD.

[propower]

Originally Posted by guitardom

OP,
An FYI, BFD was updated last week. 3.0.2.8 the license manager has been updated as well.

Have you changed some settings in BFD in experimentation like dropping the velocity layers a bit, loading the samples to ram, set it to 16 bit for tracking? You have a lot of performance options in BFD.

THanks for the version update! I have certainly tried a few of those changes. Not to derail this but Guitardom - I have 16G ram (8G assigned to PT) and whenever I hit "Load to Ram" in BFD3 it proceeds to take over every bit of RAM there is. My lowly 1.5GB drum set eats 12G of RAM. I wrote about this on BFD3 forum but got zero replies. Does this feature work for you??

--------------------------

Just did some recording with Axiom 25 driving BFD3 and Superior 2.0 PT11.0.2HD
BFD3 at 96/64 took CPU use from 10% to 60% (when I engaged record) but recorded without issue - 96/128 was more like 40%CPU
Superior 2.0 took CPU on session from 10% to ~25% at 96/64 and recorded without issue
Kontakt (K9 version) Abbey Road 60's drums takes CPU from 10% to 25% - worked 2X flawless then non stop -9172 :-(