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  #21  
Old 10-22-2010, 10:19 AM
yambike yambike is offline
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Default Re: HEAT, NEVE 8048 Listening Challenge

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Originally Posted by digidesigner View Post
I think we are getting these kind of similar results because HEAT mixes have slightly more top end = better
That's funny. I got 4 of the 5 Heat picks right and the way I discerned it was by picking the one that sounded the most veiled. I'm pretty sure the one I got wrong was the intro because there wasn't enough air information to go on.

The one I preferred was Neve. It's got the harmonics and the air. It seems to me that with harmonics plugs the air is always compromised.

I did the test on my home computer with 7506's through a Soundblaster card.
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  #22  
Old 10-22-2010, 11:10 AM
yambike yambike is offline
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Default Re: HEAT, NEVE 8048 Listening Challenge

If people know what to listen for I'll bet the picks would be more accurate.

FWIW this, roughly, is how I discern it:

Neve has solid kick/bass, harmonics and gel and sounds open.

Heat has solid kick/bass, harmonics and gel but it's not as open as Neve, especially when it's pushed.

PT sounds open but doesn't have solid kick/bass, harmonics or gel.
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  #23  
Old 10-22-2010, 11:42 AM
SOUNDDECISION SOUNDDECISION is offline
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Default Re: HEAT, NEVE 8048 Listening Challenge

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Originally Posted by Tom Graham View Post

. To me, the average score of 30% means people can't really hear the difference, it's slightly less than 33% if you randomly pick 3.

!
But I think this misses the point. All the mixes clearly sound different, but we have no way to know what is what. Its not that people are getting a lot wrong because they all sound the same, it's more there is no point of reference as to what is what. I got I think 11% or something but that wasnt because I couldn't tell the difference it was that I was consistently attributing a sound to the wrong summing device.

To me the difference was HUGE actually. I'd love to take the test simply as pick your favorite sounding sections. THEN see what comes of it.

Its like if you do a preamp shoot out...you pick your favorite sounding choice. You don't sit there and have to say ...oh that must be the 1073, oh thats the Manley... thats the API...oh and that thin one must be a Mackie.

I think this is an important test for all of us but I dont think you can draw the conclusion that they all must sound the same since there are so many wrong answers. Its more that we can hear the difference but have no idea which one is which.....
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  #24  
Old 10-22-2010, 12:01 PM
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Tom Graham Tom Graham is offline
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Default Re: HEAT, NEVE 8048 Listening Challenge

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Originally Posted by SOUNDDECISION View Post
But I think this misses the point. All the mixes clearly sound different, but we have no way to know what is what. Its not that people are getting a lot wrong because they all sound the same, it's more there is no point of reference as to what is what. I got I think 11% or something but that wasnt because I couldn't tell the difference it was that I was consistently attributing a sound to the wrong summing device.
It's a double blind test. It's designed to not judge which you prefer, but to see if you can correctly identify what is what without knowing if it switched or not. If the Neve is heads above the Pro Tools mixes, you should be able to pick it every time.

From Wikipedia :
Double-blind describes an especially stringent way of conducting an experiment, usually on human subjects, in an attempt to eliminate subjective bias on the part of both experimental subjects and the experimenters

We added the question in on which you prefer is just a way of letting you see what version you preferred for that loop....
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  #25  
Old 10-22-2010, 01:14 PM
yambike yambike is offline
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Default Re: HEAT, NEVE 8048 Listening Challenge

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Originally Posted by Tom Graham View Post
It's designed to ... see if you can correctly identify what is what without knowing if it switched or not.
While it can be assumed that most test participants have a reference to PT it's less likely that all have a reference to Neve or Heat. The test doesn't account for this. In the cases where a reference doesn't exist the only useful information gleaned would be whether changes were perceived or not .
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  #26  
Old 10-22-2010, 08:08 PM
kinghand kinghand is offline
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Default Re: HEAT, NEVE 8048 Listening Challenge

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Originally Posted by digidesigner View Post
I think we are getting these kind of similar results because HEAT mixes have slightly more top end = better
Actually, I first choose all the answer between Neve and Heat opposite, because I choose those I like best as HEAT, but I fouind they are wrong, and I made the opposite answer again, then most of them are all right. So, the best result to my ear is from Neve, but not HEAT, but obviously, HEAT is better than without HEAT. My monitor is Digidesign RM2.
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  #27  
Old 10-22-2010, 08:28 PM
SOUNDDECISION SOUNDDECISION is offline
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Default Re: HEAT, NEVE 8048 Listening Challenge

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Originally Posted by Tom Graham View Post
It's a double blind test. It's designed to not judge which you prefer, but to see if you can correctly identify what is what without knowing if it switched or not. If the Neve is heads above the Pro Tools mixes, you should be able to pick it every time.

From Wikipedia :
Double-blind describes an especially stringent way of conducting an experiment, usually on human subjects, in an attempt to eliminate subjective bias on the part of both experimental subjects and the experimenters
Right, but this is why this is clearly NOT a Double blind test since you expect there NEEDS to be bias assuming we MUST believe the NEVE sounds better.

If we follow the logic here I suppose we are supposed to pick the best sounding mix as the NEVE ...Heat as the 2nd best sounding and Protools only as the third. But this doesnt account for the fact that HEAT may sound the best...for example.

In other words I clearly knew which mix sounded the best but how would I have ANY way to know if the HEAT mix was the best or the NEVE.

More importantly you cant come to the conclusion that they all sound the same since so many people get most of it wrong. It's very obvious they sound very different. Its entirely more likely that the reason for the low scores is people dont know which is which... not that they sound the same.
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  #28  
Old 10-22-2010, 09:23 PM
jasonmiller0607 jasonmiller0607 is offline
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Default Re: HEAT, NEVE 8048 Listening Challenge

I agree... I think the test could be better if we simply selected which one we prefer.

Fun, nonetheless.

For those of you who want a better experience with this test, as I did, I imported the audio into Pro Tools and split it out to three tracks... A, B and C. They are all perfectly phase-aligned so you can take your time and really A/B(/C) them in a non-linear way like you ought to. Here is a link to download my session. I'll have it up for a few weeks.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6925090/HEAT%20Challenge.zip


Jason

P.S. Feel free to engage the trims and try some null testing. There are some interesting results.
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  #29  
Old 10-23-2010, 06:06 AM
axiom axiom is offline
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Default Re: HEAT, NEVE 8048 Listening Challenge

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Originally Posted by SOUNDDECISION View Post
Its entirely more likely that the reason for the low scores is people dont know which is which... not that they sound the same.
I'd think that was the point of the test. If most can't tell which is which, then any bias they have initially isn't a factor.

I'm still in my demo period with HEAT, but I'll definitely be buying it.
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  #30  
Old 10-23-2010, 06:31 AM
bolau bolau is offline
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Cool Re: HEAT, NEVE 8048 Listening Challenge

In my opinion, it would be nice to see the results of an actual ABX comparison for a flat Neve vs. Protools. Many claim that it sounds totally different, but it would be nice to put a number on the accuracy.

For me the test as it is doesn't make much sense without a reference.

Just my $0.02...

Boris

P.S.: I did the old Neve vs PT test on the digidesign webpage, but that included the console EQ and Comp and so on. It'll be more revealing to test only one thing at a time -- analog vs. digital summing.

Last edited by bolau; 10-23-2010 at 06:43 AM. Reason: adding the P.S. :)
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