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  #31  
Old 01-21-2014, 06:49 AM
musicman691 musicman691 is offline
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Default Re: Problem with Issues and Issues with Problems

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Originally Posted by louieshowers View Post
Guitardom,

You are a logical guy. I appreciate this post. I am also a logical guy. My issue and allen_gibberish's (I assume) is the notion that when people come on here and voice frustration about a product that has essentially been in beta testing mode for upwards of ten years, there are a few users here who act like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05NWJ2p4jhQ and this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfKL6RM8hsY

I have made it a conscious effort to STIFLE this behavior on here in an attempt to counteract the other stifling. Make sense? The product speaks for itself. The fact that certain people are noticing a product that has not delivered as a whole, and are speaking out makes them stupid? I beg to differ. What is stupid is a company who refuses to adequately develop an amazing CONCEPT (AKA PROTOOLS). It is still a concept and not a reality. I would love to use a fully functioning Protools. Not one that I am hitting ctrl+s on every 30 seconds because of my lack of faith in it. Not one that crashes when I use an advertised feature (elastic audio). Not one that has a GUI freeze for 6 months (during which time, certain "experts" stifled and belittled those reporting the issue). So, having said that, I understand that the easiest thing to do would be to call me a lunatic/loudmouth (in so many words) and minimize my voice (allen_gibberish's ) with snarky remarks etc... but THE PRODUCT SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. Just ASK AROUND. I did not create the international reputation that exists in said product and company.
Granted you did not create the international reputation that exists for PT but you have to realize that there are people every day who make a living using PT and who don't have problems. So it is fully functional; one just needs to have a modicum of technical ability and the temperament to go with that.

No one stifles anyone around here. Rather what happens here is people come on asking for help, are given the help they need, don't or won't follow the help they were given (and still have the same problems), come back with a 'tude, blame everyone but themselves, and cop an even worse attitude when they are told if they had followed the advice given that may well have solved their problems. And the cycle worsens because the original person with the problem sees nothing wrong with the way they are working or their system and refuses to acknowledge that. And they blame everyone but themselves for their problems.
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  #32  
Old 01-21-2014, 06:50 AM
louieshowers louieshowers is offline
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Default Re: Problem with Issues and Issues with Problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
Granted you did not create the international reputation that exists for PT but you have to realize that there are people every day who make a living using PT and who don't have problems. So it is fully functional; one just needs to have a modicum of technical ability and the temperament to go with that.

No one stifles anyone around here. Rather what happens here is people come on asking for help, are given the help they need, don't or won't follow the help they were given (and still have the same problems), come back with a 'tude, blame everyone but themselves, and cop an even worse attitude when they are told if they had followed the advice given that may well have solved their problems. And the cycle worsens because the original person with the problem sees nothing wrong with the way they are working or their system and refuses to acknowledge that. And they blame everyone but themselves for their problems.
Round and round we go...Have it your way. Hahaha..Noone stifles anything around here!!????? Do you know what stifle means? Ask guitardom to post a link for you! If you cannot admit that Protools has not delivered to its target audience, then there is no point of trying to have a fair discussion here. The product speaks for itself. Ask around. I make money off of protools too.. I don't get it????? I never said it doesn't run!!! I said it is PROBLEMATIC, and UNRELIABLE!!! Many people who complain here do so from REAL life studios! Many even refuse to graduate past PT 8!! Because of said "international reputation." I am not the "go along for the ride" type. Never have been and never will be. Especially when my time, creativity and money and stress is invested. uh uh

"Never sacrifice who you are just because someone has a problem with it."

Talk about hypocrisy!! Notice how I didn't feel the need to post a condescending link to the definition of the word...
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  #33  
Old 01-21-2014, 07:34 AM
allen_gibberish allen_gibberish is offline
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Default Re: Avid officially kills Sugar Bytes TransVST

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Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
You asked about improvements...
Holy.. never-ending-story.

I asked for reasons to pass to 11, reasons to me are not improvement the way you mean it.. like features.. but stability, things already present in 9 and 8, that do what they are supposed to do.. instead a jungle of crashes and unexpected behaviors

Quote:
Valid concern. Personally I mix w the CPU meter open at all times, so I am aware of whats going on. Plus with my current machine, it has to be awful big mix to even begin to be a concern. I couldnt picture myself getting into that pickle, but sure it could happen to others.
Thanks for not dismissing everything I say :P
Yeah.. one can adapt, but seems Logic and Ableton already do this and, even though the CPU meter is always present, I didn't find myself in that way.. because when mixing/working.. I try to stay focused on the music and what I'm doing.. so I don't look at the CPU meters unless there's a problem

Quote:
Many of us have that already. Not sure what what problems you are experiencing to keeps that from happening.
I'm very happy for you. To get PT9 working in a stable way, other then following every Avid suggestion to optimize the system (which I actually thanks Avid for doing), I had to delete all the processes unrelated to audio, using 4 separate HDs to separate OS/Samples/Recording and general trash.. and defragment every 2/3 months.. and now I'm getting only around 5 to 10 crashes per day. Ableton 8 doesn't crash (for example, and they did just that, a version without concentrating in new features, but in making it working.. it took them like 3/4 years)

Quote:
They made it very clear that 10 is the transition into 11. Hence why they allowed a co install of 10 and 11. Not sure what else they could have done. Not sure how the jump from PPC to intel was their fault?? It was their problem obviously, but not self created. A bit unfair to assume so.
I completely emphatize with their situation and I understand them from their point of view. Then I see mine and the one of people I know/work with.. and it has been a nightmare in these years because all these changes have made PT very unstable. Not their fault at all, it is actually Apple that should realize that it is good to innovate, but they have to let the developers time to follow them because Apple is one them are many and don't develop only for Apple, but actually their 90% of the market is around PCs or so. And also Apple should start considering that if they continuously innovate killing stuff so fast.. users will actually almost never have a stable system to work/play with.. once it becomes stable, they change everything and we go through another transition period.

The problem with Avid is just being fast in solving these problems, providing updates. I had a problem with MH, one day and I got in the mail the new installer. I'm not saying at that level.. but after people go on for months telling you there's a bug.. would you care to put out an installer that solves it within a couple of months max?

Quote:
Your beta assertion you ask???
So no, you havent used 11?? You never really used 10 either?? I left 9 running and was happy to do it! You do realize you are comparing the end cycle of a build to the start of another?? Things tend to be a little off at the beginning. I suppose you didnt use 6 early on?? it was one of the biggest disasters I have ever seen. By 6.4 it was solid. 90% of all problems I see with peoples PT systems are plugin related or computer maintenance or just underpowered for what is trying to be accomplished.
Look, I'm based on what I used. I used 10 in studios and the anecdote I've wrote about it is not the only one, it happened quite some time to go in studios and use PT 10 HD.. and fighting with it getting crashes with very few tracks and load.

I've upgraded to 8 in a heartbeat, same goes to 9.. then things got messy and I just waited looking around to not trash my money.

If I could trust Avid, I'd have already bought 11.
Considering my experiences I can't.

I'm not comparing the first versions with the last ones. In PT9 I'm using PT 9.0.2 from 3 and up it is a mess (3 usable, 5 and 6 not) PT9 was actually even more stable in its first version if I remember correctly. I've seen people buying 9 hoping that it would have been the stable version of 8.. and it was, in the first versions of it.. then become a mess.. so people bought 10 hoping it was the stable version of 9.. in my experience, I've never seen 10 stable. So buying 11 would be a leap of faith.. I'll do it, maybe, when I'll change the computer.. but it will take me a lot of time transitioning to avoid corrupted projects, data lost, projects opening not in the way they should.. etc. which would mean.. keep the old computer, the old software, PT9, buy a double of all the HDs I have, backup them again, so to have another version of the projects done with PT9.. because I cannot afford losing stuff and when you get a corrupted something, if you are lucky, you get DigiTechSupport telling you "oops we are sorry for what happened to you it never happened to us and it must depend to your system because we are unable to reproduce your problem".. like.. what happened was your responsibility because you are stupid

Quote:
So who's fault is this??
a. Avid
b. The Studio
for extra credit, care to elaborate why?
Well it didn't happened only in that studio, it happened several times.. the studio owner was so sorry and he didn't have any responsibility.. we just did a clean install of everything as Avid suggest, simply PT couldn't work and he told me he spent a lot of time with his Avid guy because he often has problems like that and he cannot even get in touch with Avid as he wanted to.

Quote:
And who are you mad at??
Mad.. I'm expressing my experience because you and other people requested motivations.. what do you think? You invest thousand thousand of money on a product.. and it doesn't work.. then you take Ableton, spend a couple of hundreds and it doesn't crash

I wasn't even mixing, I was using 8 tracks at most

Quote:
I know tons of people and studios including mine and another I work out of with no issues. PT has never claimed to be the most simplistic plug and play software.
Well, perfect, what would I say? I wouldn't ever diss what you say nor neglect PT cannot be stable, I'm just talking about of my experience.. and I think I actually know Macs quite good to set them up and optimize them properly, in fact I usually see my PT9 on my computer works pretty stable compared to what I see from friends, colleagues... so maybe it is also a question of different standards.. I may admit I have higher standards.. I've been used to consider probably the primer feature of Audio software - stability - because you can't lose a take no matter what.. if then we are talking about a live recording.. well, it is even more important

Quote:
If a dev wishes to be relevant in the world of PT, they will create an AAX plugin.
I understand, but that's again like "forcing" I mean I was more talking about direct interest. Because the one you are talking about is to embrace PT because Pros use it and so the reputation from Pros could be important.. but that's the kind of "reverence", IMO, Avid should really change. It could have been ok when you are the leader, in the 90ies.. today you have to prove everyday you are the leader, or accept being or becoming second (which is something I don't wish for Avid, nor for me)

Quote:
I never said RTAS was optimized did I??? care to quote that for me?? We were talking about 11 were we not?
No I was talking mostly about 9 and a bit of 8 and 10. So I was talking RTAS, so you were "replying to 9 with 11" which doesn't make much sense, but glad we now have understood each other position

Quote:
10 and below were very clunky with Vi's and why hosting in VEP pro, Reaper, and other Daws-Hosts is so popular. I also expect a lot of people to continue with this workflow.
I have to many things to keep open and I prefer not using a thing like VEP or similar.. I also think a DAW should be able to load plugs properly

Quote:
Considering you still work on 9, I am guessing you are behind and not up to date on many things. Thats all fine and well, but many of us have altered our work flows and found new plugins. Its not all bad. There are plenty to choose from. You also did not specify "your" plugins. But reading I with that in mind, i see where you are coming from.
The problem is exactly this, I would have upgraded to 11 but the fact I now have a fairly stable system is what keeps me from doing it. I value more having a fairly stable system, then new feature.. the ideal thing for me would be just having Aux compensated and midi time stamped curved automations in PT9 :P (I dream at night having these)

Quote:
I apologize, its all opinions then.
No problem!! I actually appreciate exchanging opinions.

Quote:
I am a person that does not have all these issues and problems in Pro Tools as well as being up to date with it, so therefore I would say a person that has the ability and willing to help others that have problems.
And I'm so happy for you!
I think it depends on the task. If one is only mixing or only recording or if he is doing everything, what's is using, is sequencing internally, externally.. etc, different needs, different load, using different things=different problems/point of view
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  #34  
Old 01-21-2014, 07:49 AM
allen_gibberish allen_gibberish is offline
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Default Re: Problem with Issues and Issues with Problems

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Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
Most everybody knows before getting into PT, it's a special beast that must be treated different than other programs. You can argue against it and say it shouldn't be, which I agree, but there are 2 choices. Treat it as such and go along for the ride, or sit on the sidelines yelling at it.
I completely get what you mean and when I was in PT8 I actually liked that it needs to be treated with attention, I think part of this is one of the reasons why it is better, to me, than other DAWs I used.

I felt even, like, proud.. in PT8 because after tweaking everything as it should, I had a so stable system (I don't remember the PT8 exact version) for a while that was like a dream, as I think PT should be.

When you just do all the same things and it didn't become like that.. you start telling yourself.. yeah but most of the other DAWs are more stable without even tweaking anything in the OS..

I like the troubleshooting/optimizing approach of PT, if it delivers, as I like AAX concept of proprietary format that works only in PT, based on higher standards.. if it works as advertised and gets adopted.

Now I've just lost a big of faith in Avid and the thing like the CPU meter made me think.. that's the same old [bleep][bleep][bleep][bleep][bleep][bleep][bleep][bleep] of better performances.. while maybe it is just the way the CPU usage is expressed by the meter, meaning considering it is dynamic it will be certainly lower in certain point, but in others will be at the same.. while the old CPU meter considered only the maximum usage (and maybe there are a little better performances.. but not as I expected from statement like "we cannot get Logic performances because we have to rewrite all the engine" but then maybe PT11 is on par with Logic regarding plug in load etc.. which I actually don't even need it, I mean I'd be happy with 2/3rds of the amount of plugs Logic can open)

Well, we'll see. I actually hope I'd be able to try 11 out in some months

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
Granted you did not create the international reputation that exists for PT but you have to realize that there are people every day who make a living using PT and who don't have problems. So it is fully functional
What I'm seeing around is a lot of people who make a living using PT, as I suppose Louie is, slaloming between crashes, dueling with unexpected behaviors and moaning all the time with me in their day off.. or chasing Avid techs to have their system look up... that's why I came up with statements like "it is in beta testing period".. if I had your experience I'd came up with "to me is fully functional"

See.. everything is subjective and depends to point of view, experience and so on
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  #35  
Old 01-21-2014, 08:33 AM
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Emcha_audio Emcha_audio is offline
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Default Re: Problem with Issues and Issues with Problems

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Originally Posted by allen_gibberish View Post

When you just do all the same things and it didn't become like that.. you start telling yourself.. yeah but most of the other DAWs are more stable without even tweaking anything in the OS..
As I pointed out in the other thread, Cubendo, Sonar, Repear (in program optimization), Ableton, FL studio 8, Reason, Studio one 2, Mixcraft 6 all have their tweaking tips provided by the manufacturer and or users that ran into problems, just like PT. It's not because one person doesn't have to optimize his system and doesn't run into problems that it is the same for every one. It is always best to optimize your system for Audio work than risking running into problems. It's only a Myth that there's DAW's out there that doesn't need any optimization for any and all the users. Either it's done internally in the software (through the options) or, and most likely, it's done in the os, or a combination of both.

And there's also a lot of people who makes a living using pt (like myself) who do not run into the vast majority of problems other users have, partly technical knowledge, partly system configurations, partly choosing the right system from the get go piece by piece. Not saying that it's not possible that some might run into problems even if all the 3 partly's are valid, but one has to remember that it's only a portion of the users that come to posts here, there's a very good likely hood that there's even more users that never posts because they found the information they needed on the net without having to ask, or because they do not have problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by allen_gibberish View Post
I like the troubleshooting/optimizing approach of PT, if it delivers, as I like AAX concept of proprietary format that works only in PT, based on higher standards.. if it works as advertised and gets adopted.
AAX has only been out for 2 years now, and yet there's a lot of plugins that came out if you factor in that they first had to do the 32 bit version for PT 10 and then the 64 bit version a year or so later for PT 11. I'm pretty sure that there wasn't as many RTAS plugins within the 2 years mark when the plugin format was introduced in 99. Some plugin developers came and go during the 14 years that the RTAS format was living, and so it's normal that we won't see the same amount of developers, although there's new one that did join.
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  #36  
Old 01-21-2014, 10:38 AM
louieshowers louieshowers is offline
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Default Re: Problem with Issues and Issues with Problems

Hysterical how quickly my "General Discussion Moderator" banner was taken off.. maybe one hour it lasted. I find it absolutely scrumptious how certain privileged individuals are given a banner and blank check to snicker, mute and sneer at the non privileged (aka Unsatisfied customers)... Awesome system. Worked well during Pre-Revolutionary France....until the revolution that is..
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  #37  
Old 01-21-2014, 10:56 AM
allen_gibberish allen_gibberish is offline
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Default Re: Problem with Issues and Issues with Problems

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Originally Posted by Emcha_audio View Post
As I pointed out in the other thread, Cubendo, Sonar, Repear (in program optimization), Ableton, FL studio 8, Reason, Studio one 2, Mixcraft 6 all have their tweaking tips provided by the manufacturer and or users that ran into problems
Ok lets just say that I never looked into optimization tips from other manufacturer because I never felt the need, while, on the other side, I desperately searched on the net ways to optimize PT to make it usable (talking in the past, when I got it) and found out it was so important to optimize it.

Quote:
And there's also a lot of people who makes a living using pt (like myself) who do not run into the vast majority of problems other users have, partly technical knowledge, partly system configurations, partly choosing the right system from the get go piece by piece. Not saying that it's not possible that some might run into problems even if all the 3 partly's are valid, but one has to remember that it's only a portion of the users that come to posts here, there's a very good likely hood that there's even more users that never posts because they found the information they needed on the net without having to ask, or because they do not have problems.
Yeah, there are also the other ones. Mostly I get negative feedbacks about PT in real world, not talking about internet. From people who don't even want to come here in Duc to get questioned and lose time, but they ask directly to shops or Avid if they get the chance, or they just give up.. as I did.. and stop upgrading it once, after having disabled the whole OS and all non audio related process.. they get a fairly stable setup, which to me its value is GOLD compared to any new feature.. even a "automatic ass kicking mix" feature

Quote:
AAX has only been out for 2 years now, and yet there's a lot of plugins that came out if you factor in that they first had to do the 32 bit version for PT 10 and then the 64 bit version a year or so later for PT 11. I'm pretty sure that there wasn't as many RTAS plugins within the 2 years mark when the plugin format was introduced in 99. Some plugin developers came and go during the 14 years that the RTAS format was living, and so it's normal that we won't see the same amount of developers, although there's new one that did join.
As I said I totally emphasize for Avid. But then I have to look my point of view and I think it is unacceptable to stay like 6/7 years or more between first PPC/Intel, 32/64 bit and RTAS/AAX transition.. in the mean time I have to use it. And now what.. tomorrow Apple go back from intel to their own CPUs.. and we are back in transition..
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  #38  
Old 01-21-2014, 11:09 AM
Bruce Paine Bruce Paine is offline
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Default Re: Problem with Issues and Issues with Problems

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Originally Posted by louieshowers View Post
Hysterical how quickly my "General Discussion Moderator" banner was taken off.. maybe one hour it lasted. I find it absolutely scrumptious how certain privileged individuals are given a banner and blank check to snicker, mute and sneer at the non privileged (aka Unsatisfied customers)... Awesome system. Worked well during Pre-Revolutionary France....until the revolution that is..
Don't worry about it Louie, many Avid folks and customers too have spent far too many hours of their time having to deal with your posts and games like this. You have violated the following rules and as such you will no longer be allowed to post here. We've all had enough.

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Community Terms of Use
  • You will not impersonate any other person, or submit false or inaccurate information about yourself.
  • Avid reserves the right to remove posts or restrict the posting privileges of individuals that exhibit a clear agenda designed to slander, insult, or otherwise undermine Avid, its employees, our development partners, or any other company or individual.
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  #39  
Old 01-21-2014, 11:10 AM
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YYR123 YYR123 is offline
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Default Problem with Issues and Issues with Problems

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Originally Posted by allen_gibberish View Post
The problem with Avid is just being fast in solving these problems, providing updates. I had a problem with MH, one day and I got in the mail the new installer. I'm not saying at that level.. but after people go on for months telling you there's a bug.. would you care to put out an installer that solves it within a couple of months max?
True statement....terribly slow at fixing issues. We don't know the underlying problems however. Not an excuse but I don't think we will be able to fix it either.

They really should know even Louis Hernandez (i think thats his name) that you cannot have a top tier company (ie Products) and continually give your customers bottom tier service. It just can't happen.

However it does seem to be par for the course since PT7/PT8 releases ......(slow at fixing issues)
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  #40  
Old 01-21-2014, 01:57 PM
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Emcha_audio Emcha_audio is offline
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Default Re: Problem with Issues and Issues with Problems

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Originally Posted by allen_gibberish View Post
As I said I totally emphasize for Avid. But then I have to look my point of view and I think it is unacceptable to stay like 6/7 years or more between first PPC/Intel, 32/64 bit and RTAS/AAX transition.. in the mean time I have to use it. And now what.. tomorrow Apple go back from intel to their own CPUs.. and we are back in transition..
Unfortunately that's out of Avid's hands. If Apple decides to change how it uses cpu's or which type of cpu's they use, Avid has no say in this, all they can do is adapt. So it's really more a question of a 6/7 years of going from 32 to 64 bits and at the same time from RTAS/TDM to AAX. PT 10 was announced as a stepping stone to true 64 bit addressing, and it served it's purpose as such to soften the blow as much as possible. Imagine instead if in oct 2011 Avid announced pt 10 as a 64 bit platform and that at the same time RTAS was taken out right away, and then on top of that that the HD hardware would no longer work, and then on top of that they were coming in with HDX that required every one to buy new hardware new plugins and new comp... That would have been ludicrous. So yes it took some time for 64 bit to come out, not an easy task when you consider the complexity of this particular DAW and it's interaction with proprietary hardware and third party hardware as I'm sure imho Avid aim was to break things as little as possible in term of third party hardware interaction as promised since PT 9 openness. PT 11 was probably already under work when PT 9 came out since I seem to remember them saying it took close to 4 years to do.
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