Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Learn & Support


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > Legacy Products > Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-14-2009, 04:29 AM
buckaroo buckaroo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 311
Default Re-learning to mix ITB?

Following on from the thread earlier, with the "Mixing in PT doesn't sound good"
I just wanted to get any advice on mixing ITB..

I know PT does sound good and have heard countless records, sfx, films, etc that all must mix ITB with Protools so I haven't got a problem with that..

I come from an Analog Soundcraft Ghost desk and DAT and have progressed from early DAW on PC to now using Logic / PT HD2 on a Mac Pro with a stack of AU's FX and Ableton/Logic for any composing..

My problem is the mixing ITB, I think its true that you need to re-learn everything when coming from a console

As i start to build up a track most things start clipping as i add more tracks to the master fader which i suppose is obvious.. but does anyone have any tips for mixing and how the professionals mix ITB?

I have heard that the biggest mistake is keeping all the channel faders quite high around 0db and bringing down the Master - so you end up with a normal looking mix but your master is like -25db right at the bottom!

Should this be the other way around? master at 0db and faders brought down?

Any help on this would be great as ive never felt that confident mixing ITB due to how easy it is to overload. But I hear some fantastic loud pop records ie: Britney, Rhianna etc that all seemed to be mixed this way and obviously no clipping?

If there are any ITB mixing tutorials online or references that would be great, as i do think i need to change from the outboard mixing style to get to grips with this..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-14-2009, 05:01 AM
crizdee's Avatar
crizdee crizdee is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brighton, UK
Posts: 10,584
Default Re: Re-learning to mix ITB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by buckaroo View Post
Should this be the other way around? master at 0db and faders brought down?
Never adjust the master fader! always leave it at -0dbfs

Use a mix bus (an aux channel) and route all your tracks to the mix bus then route the mix bus to the master. don't place any plugins on the master except metering plugins and its a good idea to have a meter plug open whilst mixing and keep an eye on the levels!! as a guide start your drum track/ or have your drum track with a level of about -18dbfs then you'll have plenty of headroom left to ad other parts on top.

Its alien at first to start a mix at such a low level but this is a major factor.

After this it becomes very subjective and personal. some like to ad plugins for flavor and some don't feel the need and just mix till they like the sound. I do have a plugin on the mix bus for flavor and its the Waves V-Comp, it is set to just ad some color and doesn't compress unless i get over a certain level which is quite high about -2dbfs, but i rarely get near that level when mixing!!

here's a pic of the V-comp setting...
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...IXBUSTONER.jpg

here's a pic of the mix bus! you'll notice the level is not slamming the master! and the metering plugin from Massey tools on the master...
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...IXBUSMETER.jpg



chris
__________________
PT MAC Troubleshooting... http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=54888

Producer, Engineer,
UKmastering Mixing & Mastering
Blinders_Columbia top 40 UK album charts
Slow Readers Club Joy Of The Return #9 UK album charts

www.ukmastering.com


PT10.3.10 Mountain Lion HD6 accel Magma PE6R4 D Command 32 MacPro 12 Core 3.46ghz UAD-2 Octo x2. Manley Vari-Mu, Manley Massive Passive, SSL VHD, ADL600, Grove Tubes ViPre, Tube-Tech CL-1B. Hafler TRM active monitoring.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-14-2009, 05:38 AM
buckaroo buckaroo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 311
Default Re: Re-learning to mix ITB?

Thanks for this - just out of interest what style of music are you mastering there?

I was thinking of full in your face pop which is limited hard, do these producers still mix to start with at very low levels?

Also i learnt something new there, didnt know you could have the master fader on its side big and fat like that!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-14-2009, 05:59 AM
blackbirdstudio blackbirdstudio is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 287
Default Re: Re-learning to mix ITB?

Good thread...
I completely agree that it is a different skill mixing itb, than it is on a board. Obviously alot of similarities, but different appoach for sure. I love the itb thing now. The total recall of a mix at such ease is invaluable. One click... Sweet....

The whole board vs itb argument is getting less and less valid as time passes. With the current plugs available, you can colour pro tools however you want. Pretty cool i reckon. There is a sonic difference, but its not better or worse to me, just different. Saying that, havent mixed on a board for over a year now. Nice Neotech board... Sweet.

The main thing for me is to not crowd the headroom on the mix bus too much. It can handle alot, but it sounds more restricted after a certain point. Nothing to worry about, you'll know when ya hit that point. Ya drums are usually the first to suffer...

Still, its more about what goes in that counts...

Cheers
Dave
__________________
2.66 Ghz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, OS 10.6.3
HD3 Accel, Control 24, PT 8.1 cs1
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-14-2009, 06:21 AM
DJRECORDS DJRECORDS is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 20
Default Re: Re-learning to mix ITB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by buckaroo View Post
Thanks for this - just out of interest what style of music are you mastering there?

I was thinking of full in your face pop which is limited hard, do these producers still mix to start with at very low levels?

Also i learnt something new there, didnt know you could have the master fader on its side big and fat like that!
Thats a metering plugin thats placed parallel across the screen! the Massey one? looks nice and big and easy to use, i'll check that out.

Mixing is one thing and mastering is another.

Jez
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-14-2009, 08:52 AM
crizdee's Avatar
crizdee crizdee is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brighton, UK
Posts: 10,584
Default Re: Re-learning to mix ITB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by buckaroo View Post
Thanks for this - just out of interest what style of music are you mastering there?

I was thinking of full in your face pop which is limited hard, do these producers still mix to start with at very low levels?

Also i learnt something new there, didnt know you could have the master fader on its side big and fat like that!
Hi,

Thats a mix session on a house tune. only thing i might ad at the mixing stage is some compression, but not very much. i will place a limiter on for reference only and when bouncing down to take a listen etc, but i'll remove the limiter when i do the final bounce. and of course i'll always do the mastering in a new session with just the stereo mix.

Starting a mix at low level has nothing to do with the final mastered product being loud and in your face as you put it. that is very much a combination of good mixing and good mastering. A good mix will always relate into a good master, so getting the mix right at the beginning is essential. i would go as far as to say that a mix that isn't slamming the mixbus will always make a better master and leaving the mastering engineer the dynamics and headroom to work with will really help to get a better end product. don't try to mix and master at the same time.


As mentioned thats the Massey tools meter thats on the screen! what's good about it is you can modify it and make it almost any size and set the scaling for personal taste.

Chris
__________________
PT MAC Troubleshooting... http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=54888

Producer, Engineer,
UKmastering Mixing & Mastering
Blinders_Columbia top 40 UK album charts
Slow Readers Club Joy Of The Return #9 UK album charts

www.ukmastering.com


PT10.3.10 Mountain Lion HD6 accel Magma PE6R4 D Command 32 MacPro 12 Core 3.46ghz UAD-2 Octo x2. Manley Vari-Mu, Manley Massive Passive, SSL VHD, ADL600, Grove Tubes ViPre, Tube-Tech CL-1B. Hafler TRM active monitoring.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-14-2009, 11:28 AM
O.G. Killa's Avatar
O.G. Killa O.G. Killa is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,152
Default Re: Re-learning to mix ITB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by buckaroo View Post

As i start to build up a track most things start clipping as i add more tracks to the master fader which i suppose is obvious.. but does anyone have any tips for mixing and how the professionals mix ITB?

I have heard that the biggest mistake is keeping all the channel faders quite high around 0db and bringing down the Master - so you end up with a normal looking mix but your master is like -25db right at the bottom!

Should this be the other way around? master at 0db and faders brought down?

Any help on this would be great as ive never felt that confident mixing ITB due to how easy it is to overload. But I hear some fantastic loud pop records ie: Britney, Rhianna etc that all seemed to be mixed this way and obviously no clipping?

If there are any ITB mixing tutorials online or references that would be great, as i do think i need to change from the outboard mixing style to get to grips with this..
The first step in getting a good mix ITB is to track correctly. Your mix should be pretty close to the final with ALL THE FADERS set to 0dB. Your average level should be a little under halfway up the protools meter. Don't think 0dBFS is the same as 0dB VU!! There is roughly an 18~20dB difference in volume between them.

It's not a tutorial, but there is some great info from some amazing sound engineers in this thread talking about some of the issues you are running into...
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind.../t/15038/1561/

It's not your job to make it loud, it's your job to make it sound good. Making it loud is a different step altogether....

If you have to pull any fader down by 25dB, then you should check to make sure you didn't record it incorrectly... From a mixing stand point you want to try to keep all your faders around 0dB. Why? Because the faders are logarithmic. Moving the fader down by 1" starting at 0dB will roughly reduce the volume by 5 or 6dB. moving the fader down by an inch starting at -20dB will reduce the volume by about 20dB!!! You have more subtle control over levels the closer you can keep the faders to 0. Mixing with all your faders down around -25dB means every tiny little movement you make on the faders will yield drastic volume changes in those tracks. It is much harder to mix that way.

Track lower and keep your faders at unity as much as possible.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-14-2009, 11:37 AM
WernerF WernerF is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: New York City
Posts: 3,052
Default Re: Re-learning to mix ITB?

I personally prefer to mix with some mastering going on on the mix buss. That is one one of the things that makes mixing on an SSL great too. The master buss compressor is awesome and, not to mention, legendary. I have never mixed on one without it engaged. If you don't do this the mastering engineer has much more of an ability to change the relative levels of your mix. If he slams it a bit the center information, like the snare for instance, will get noticeably quieter and the outside info, guitars for one, will get louder. It can happen with the best mastering guys. It's hard to find someone that you can trust. The guys, and sometimes girl (Emily Lazar) that I work with regularely like the fact that the mix is in a place where they don't have to do much more than possibly tighten up the low end and give it a little volume boost.

On attended sessions, sometimes we experiment a little more with frequencies, but not with relative levels.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-14-2009, 11:41 AM
WernerF WernerF is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: New York City
Posts: 3,052
Default Re: Re-learning to mix ITB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by O.G. Killa View Post
The first step in getting a good mix ITB is to track correctly. Your mix should be pretty close to the final with ALL THE FADERS set to 0dB. Your average level should be a little under halfway up the protools meter. Don't think 0dBFS is the same as 0dB VU!! There is roughly an 18~20dB difference in volume between them.

It's not a tutorial, but there is some great info from some amazing sound engineers in this thread talking about some of the issues you are running into...
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind.../t/15038/1561/

It's not your job to make it loud, it's your job to make it sound good. Making it loud is a different step altogether....

If you have to pull any fader down by 25dB, then you should check to make sure you didn't record it incorrectly... From a mixing stand point you want to try to keep all your faders around 0dB. Why? Because the faders are logarithmic. Moving the fader down by 1" starting at 0dB will roughly reduce the volume by 5 or 6dB. moving the fader down by an inch starting at -20dB will reduce the volume by about 20dB!!! You have more subtle control over levels the closer you can keep the faders to 0. Mixing with all your faders down around -25dB means every tiny little movement you make on the faders will yield drastic volume changes in those tracks. It is much harder to mix that way.

Track lower and keep your faders at unity as much as possible.
I find all of this to be totally counter intuitive and mechanical. It puts engineering and mechanics first and artful listening second. The notion of having all of your faders as close to zero is an old school notion that, to me at least, has nothing to do with whether or not the actual musicality of the mix sounds good. Fader movement should happen as the result of listening to the audio that is being controlled by that fader and it's level relative to the other audio in the mix. Also, don't forget that we have the ability to make microscopic level adjustments in Pro Tools these days. The ability to get down to the smallest increment is one of the amazing aspects of ITB mixing.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-14-2009, 11:51 AM
O.G. Killa's Avatar
O.G. Killa O.G. Killa is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,152
Default Re: Re-learning to mix ITB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WernerF View Post
I personally prefer to mix with some mastering going on on the mix buss. That is one one of the things that makes mixing on an SSL great too. The master buss compressor is awesome and, not to mention, legendary.
I'm sorry, but having used the SSL G series bus compressor a lot, it is in no way, shape or form anything close to "mastering". Putting a compressor across the mix bus is not "mastering" by any stretch of the imagination. That's like saying building a skyscraper is just a couple metal beams bolted together....
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
learning the 003 factory gclef101 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 0 08-07-2009 05:29 PM
Learning BFD???? finalcut 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 4 04-20-2007 09:49 PM
Learning how to use EQ Meat Truck 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 12 11-16-2002 03:35 AM
HELP...I'm still learning CodeBlue 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 4 01-24-2002 04:02 AM
Learning how to EQ sidereal Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac) 4 08-19-2001 07:11 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:22 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com