Collective brainstorm for ultimate PT Film Dubbing room

[tomcat]

I have opportunity to spec out a new film dubbing facility using HD/pro-control. I have to design everything from audio to video, outboard, plugins, etc... I have my ideas, all pretty obvious, but i am interested in any of your insights and suggestions. with the help of this great community, perhaps I can avoid some mistakes.

The room will be designed for medium sized films. Not the big hollywood extravaganzas with 256 tracks of backgrounds. I would like to make it entirely protools based, including the stem-recording. I know a limitation of PT in this regard is the absense of individual channel pec-direct switching, but I think I could deal with that. At least you can do it globaly.
So, the basic configuration would be two HD3 systems.
System one would serve as main playback and mixing unit and stem recorder. Because i need to always use quickpunch, "a free free voice is required for each record-enabled track". Here is the breakdown for system one:
32 voices would be reserved for stem recording (8 each for Dialog, Music, Foley, FX), leaving 94 available for playback of Dialog, Foley, and Music as follows: Dialog: 16
ADR: 8
Group: 8
Foley: 32
Music: 32
Obviously, this would be a rarely-used configuration because the music and the foley would likely be predubbed down to much fewer tracks. But using this setup, the predub could be virtual, leaving the most flexibility. Also obviously, these allocations are simply a hypothetical example. everything is dynamic to a given session.
System two would be reserved for backgrounds and effects, creating a virtual 5.1 premix that would be sent aes/ebu to system one through the I/O boxes. The FX premix would be automated on a 5.1 aux fader within system one and would be bused directly to the FX stem record tracks.

Outboard would include very few items that cannot be found in a plugin: dolby 430 background noise reducer, LaFont or Urei cinema filter set, dbx Sub synthesiser. Reverb would be handled inside by Reverb One and Realverb 5.1. I think these sound pretty damn good. Anyone think I need a 960 or system 6000 for sure?
Dynamics would be handled inside by Waves and Channelstrip, or whatever we need.

Big question: would an HD3 system be powerful enough, or should I consider and expansion chassis and more cards? Most sessions will run at 48 or 44.1 k.

Control would include a 24 fader procontrol rig plus edit pack. My big questions about this are: is it easy to control two computers with one procontrol via an ethernet switch or something? Regarding a possible two- mixer operation (2 humans), can a fader pack be bank-switched to different faders independantly of the rest of the PC rig? (i doubt it). if not, then can a single computer support two main units? if not, then can two seperate PC rigs of 16 faders each, each controlling a seperate computer, easily share an edit-pack? Most of the time, this would be a one-man operation, but I would like to set it up to allow for hollywood-style, multi-human mixing if possible, for the deadline jobs.

I don't know enough about the new i/o options yet to know what i need to connect the two systems, or for monitoring. Suggestions from the knowledgable are welcome.
Speaking of monitoring: My partner in this has good access to FAR speakers. Any opinions about these?
I am thinking of a Martinsound multimax controller. What about woofie and tweetie in a pro environment? the room will be decent size, with full-range speakers and a proper sub.

About video, I do quite well with*a sony DV box and a nice DLP projector in*my room now. What do people think of this system in a bigger rig like this one? Another option is a stand-alone solution like Virtual VTR or the doremi box. There will also be a beta deck and a 35mm projector available. Yikes, i just realized i have no idea how to sync a 35 mm projector with PT. bi-phase? I'm sure this is easy for those who know.

Thanks to all for your thoughts. Dare to dream! [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[The Chinese]

Tomcat-
An interesting proposal. One of the most difficult things to build, in my opinion, is the Medium sized dubbing theater. Too small to really get Film sound, but too big for TV. One thing i will say is this- You must pay very close attention to speakers & crossover points in your monitoring. Delay lines become crucial- small rooms are just not forgiving as larger rooms are. Comb filtering becomes a serious issue. I would plan to spend a lot of your budget here (what good is all the PT if you can't translate into a theatre environment?) Also, you don't make any mention of your screen, i.e. whether or not it's micro perf, for example. Also you need to make sure you are using an X-curve EQ or you will never translate to a movie theater. As for the PT & ProControl, go for it; just know your limitations of your systems. Keep in mind that certain directors are going to expect old school thinking in a dubbing theater-be ready to have solutions for their concerns. Most Mixers will want to bring their own Toys, so be ready with Patch points by the mixer position, and Know your TDM latencies (This could be a big one). I personally like PT as a playback device, and like mixing on a Large format console (More flexible in terms of I/O)Also, keep in mind that even a HD3 isn't going to do a Film dub in terms of DSP. You really need a maxed system to do it right-unless you print your EQ's. Also, be ready to work in 24f and have a footage counter by your screen. If you are truly working on Film, almost always they will want to Mix to Film, so you may need a synchronizer to sync PT & Mag getting harder to find, but Adams-Smith is the best (IMHO). As for projectors, I don't know of any that don't put a delay in the signal, so watch out and be ready to delay your monitors (usually 1-2f). This becomes apparent if you're doing any video->Film switching. As for the Pec-direct thing, the Martin sound works really well as a stem monitoring device, but it doesn't do record punches, so it has limited use as a monitor chain in the setup you described in your post. I would actually monitor discreetly through someting like the Martinsound and Print stems through it (Unless you're absolutely stuck on digital, then again, what's the point if you're not?)Also the MartinSound has a grounding issue-The Inputs aren't truly balanced (they don't tell you this)so you get occasional buzzes in certain grounding configs. Ok, my opinions-
-Todd

[tomcat]

thankyou, Todd, for your generous thoughts. I currently work in my small (13x19 ft) 5.1 room which has been tuned according to the THX PM3 spec, including their CC4 crossover and volume control. I mix for a big theartre using the Tom Holman's "re-eq" curve, which is a modified "X", so the highs are cut gently above 2k to mimick the natural HF attenuation acroos the air-space in a big room. results have been pretty good at translating to a theatre. I have even done DTS and Ultrastereo printmasters here. Dolby won't touch a room without a microperf.
The new room is 28x38 ft raw, with 18ft ceilings. I am hoping to get true cinema sound in there, without a bunch of small-room compensation. I will hire a designer to help with the deley and acoustic specs, to achieve the correct curve and response. the TDM plug latency is a real pita, though. very good thought. this has to be something the mixer is completely on top of at all times.
yes, I will have a microperf screen. I will need to be fully dolby certified.

<<>>

what are you thinking of, sepcifically, when you say this?

I am trying to keep costs low, of course. that is why i plan to do stem recording in PT. That saves a bundle on I/O boxes, as the bussing and fold-down is all internal. I have been doing that in my current room for a few years with good success. I will do the math on DSP. Your are probably right about needing a maxed-out system, though.
good thoughts about a handy patchbay. absolutely. Do you think 8 channels would be enough? that way we could patch a 5.1 verb, for example, and a stereo device, or 2 mono filters, etc...
as far as mixing to film is concerned, we will have 35 mm projection, but mostly for screening reels. i don't think we will have a mixing projector that can "rock and roll" mixing picture will be digital, most likely, or beta. We may I suppose we will need a mag recorder as many studios require deliverables on full-coat still. bummer.
thanks for the heads-up on the martnsound. i will be aware of this issue. If I am recording stems in PT, it is easy to solo and muste categories there. Maybe everything can happen in PT, including stereo downmixes. I don't know yet. I do know, however, that I love the big metal know on my CC4 monitor controller now. Software is not satisfying, clearly.
Can you recommend a good company to design the accoustic treatment of a room like this? thanks again,
Tom

[The Chinese]

Tom-
Once again, tough call. If you're on a budget, it gets lean real quick. I have worked with Steven Klein on several occasions(does pretty nice stuff, albeit not real scientific). Also Chris Polonus (Although he's getting real pricey...). There are, however, many companies that will do acoustic design. It depends on where you are located. 18x38 is very small for a theatrical mix stage, especially when you consider that you lose about 6ft off your front wall for your amps, Monitors & Screen. This means your console will only about 12-15 ft. off your screen, real shallow for low freq's to develop. Also, you didn't mention if you were going to go for THX cert. (Not hard to get these days, but they changed some people on their "approved manufacturer list",so watch out...) There is somehing about Dolby that is tickling the back of my mind...can't remember right now, but I'll get back to you.
As for the old school director, I have run into many different things, but to mention a few...Some want to print every day and have a hard copy That they can take home if nec. then make fixes the next day...some have certain analog pieces they like and won't trust the Plug In...Some don't trust digital and get really nervous about leaving their mix in "Virtual Land"...Some like to mix backwards (I'm sure you've done this..)..Y'know all the things that make us dworkstation guys just kinda go, Huh?
Oh, one other thing I can think of-Be ready to do your 4-2-4 Monitoring. This is really important!!! I got burned on this one when I didn't have the monitoring chain set up and my 5.1 didn't survive the fold down...
Ok Hope this helps-
Todd

[tomcat]

bump

[branco]

tomcat,
I'm running a commercial film mixing studio in Lisbon, Portugal, in a similar room you describe.
Forst of all, dubbing theatres today come in such a variety of sizes, that we can begin to forget the idea of "big film dubbing theatre", and there are great improvements in acoustical solutions and monitoring equipment that certainly help.
A great resource could be a series of Larry Blake's articles in MIX magazine on his work on Sodebergh's TRAFFIC, which was entirely mixed in PT environment, without ever recording any pre-dub or stem prior to Print Master. ProTools has a great automation package that allows such an approach. You can certainly print your stems, for archiving purposes, but you don't need to do it during the mix. Instead, enjoy the possibility of going back to elements even in final mix and tweaking parameters in pre-mixes - it's so much easier to work that way.
As for monitoring, most of studios in Europe use JBLs, 4670D, bi-amped for that size of the room. In some designs, I've seen aldo Reflexion Arts custom made monitors, manufactured by Phil Newell, recently installed in Spain and France.
As for reverbs, I wouldn't omit a good old 480L from the list, when you compare it to plugins, you'll hear the difference. Instead of using UREI Little dipper or Lafont box, you can use Waves Q10, it has a Q of 100, and can be automated.
I'll write more next days.
Good luck
Branko

[Michael Klinger]

Thre is a film mixer that I have come to respect (insomuch as I can from a magazine article) named Larry Blake. He has written many articles in Mix Magazine about his growing experience/experimentation turned reality with mixing feature films with Protools/Pro Control as the platform, and involving a "mix-entirely-in-the-box" methodology.

His atricles have covered almost a play-by-play account of his experiences with several Steven Soderberg films that he mixed in this fashion, including "Eric Brochovich," "Traffic," and "Oceans Eleven." Oddly enough, he is doing all of this in New Orleans of all places. And if you trace back his articles, you will likely find an e-mail address, which I have written to -- and he's replied from. Might be worth a shot to get some real world input.

[tomcat]

<<>>

Thanks for the thoughts. I have tried (and used) Q10 for notch filtering, but each filter only cuts 18db, so sometimes they need to be stacked. The biggest limitation, though, is in the process: with the urei, you can go into a band-pass mode to find your little nasty, then flip it into band-reject mode to cut it. So easy. I assume the LaFont does this too, but I 've never used it. Any plug that does this? GRM makes a band pass/reject filter that is powerfull, but it introduces mucho nasty artifacts. unusable. Thanks for teh reminders to check out larry blakes articles. I have mixed a few films in PT, in this way, and with HD, having 128 voices will make it quite feasable to keep the "premixes" all virtual.

Keep the thoughts coming, thanks.

[branco]

tomcat,
indeed, Q10 has a range of 18 dB, but it can BOOST or CUT that amount, so you can use your (and everyone's) method of boosting when searching for the nasty freq. and then switching to cut. Just type the negative value into the respective box!
IMHO, -18 dB of cut, at the RIGHT FREQUENCY, with a Q 50-100 is a lot. Need more? Copy those values to the next filter stage and you've got -36 dB cut! That should do the job. If not, ADR is the answer. UREI's a great box, I've spent a lot of time using it, but it has limits... The only ones that have no substitute in TDM world are Dolby's Orange Box and cat430!
Branko

[branco]

just remembered one more thing...
I'm using ProTools (USD) as a master TC generator, slaving the projector to it. Works flawlessly. Projector: Kinoton FP38EC, Sondor TC to biphase converter. Using Kinoton's 24/25 gearbox capabilities to run 24fps with 25EBU timecode (Europe standard)
When mixing to video pic, Beta SP player, TC through 9-pin.
Everything slaved to Rosendahl video/SuperClock generator. No sync problems. When I'm mastering for Dolby Digital, the DS10 is slaved to biphase out from projector. The new Dolby's DMU will sync to TC, so it'll be easier to set it up.
Branko