Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Learn & Support


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > Legacy Products > 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-05-2002, 03:09 PM
Roy & Peter Roy & Peter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3
Default Peter & Roy\'s PTLe Shootout 1: ~FINAL RESULTS~

[img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] We bid you welcome to the results of the first Peter & Roy PTLe Shootout. For those of you new to this, the object of this shootout was to download a pre-recorded vocal track and to create your own production around it.To go to the official kickoff thread, click here. We never anticipated the amount of interest this would elicit, and we hastily had to rethink our scoring strategies.

We decided to score each entry on the basis of 12 catagories, using a pre-defined score system as a loose guide. Initially we were going to comment on every category, but after one night and two used up keyboards, we decided to only write one comments paragraph for each entry.

That does not mean that we are unwilling to defend or explain specific scores. We will happily answer specific questions, but only here at this thread in this open forum. So if you entered and you feel you have been given an unfairly high or low score, feel free to ask us about it, but be sure that you can handle the answer.

---------------------------------------------
[img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Below you will find an explanation of each score and category. Remember that these were only loose guides for us, and open to interpretation. Personal taste also played a large part in some decisions, and that is another reason why we judged independently from each other. The result of this was of course that we had no idea who would have what score at the end of it all. So we would like to say that you shouldn’t attach too much value to your score. It serves as a guideline for competition purposes, but the real meat of it is to be found in the comments.

So scores work roughly in the following way. The most one can score for a specific category is 6, and the least is 0. There are 12 catagories which gives you a total possible score of 132. But that is purely academic. This does not work the same way as school scores does. Interpret scores more or less like this :

0-Er...the cassette-deck-shootout is thataway...
1-O my poor ears!You dog-hater!
2-Dont worry,it could have been worse!
3-Good job old chap,have a cigar!
4-Could you send me your autograph sir?Just in case...
5-We're not worthy,we're not worthy!
6-Nice try mr.Lange,but we know who you are now,you are disqualified.


There are, as was previously mentioned, 12 catagories. These were used to get some sort of uniformity in the judging of entries. They work as follows :

-Harmony
Use of chords and progressions, counterpoint.Clashing keys, wrong chords and such gets low scores. Interesting progressions, nice rifs and countermelodies score high. Personal taste counts here. But wrong notes are wrong notes.

-Originality(Creativity)
Would the band down the road have thought of doing that to the song? Would you have liked to have thought of this first? Has it been done before? Are there hints of a new trend in there? Mainly a production catagory.

-Use of plugins(effects)
Is that phazer set to stun or to vapourize? Nice use of effects is good, overuse and abuse gets low scores .Unless it works, in which case ignore the previous.

-Use of plugins(dynamic)
That a compressor in your dresser of you just happy with your hairdo? Same as above .Obvious abuse scores low. Higest scores for creative or effective use of dynamic plugs.

-Structuring
How predictable are you? Where did the choruses and verses go and in what order. This is a creative catagory. Using structure as-is scores 3, reshuffeling that works scores more, reshuffeling that is a disaster scores less. Effective use of outro’s, breaks and middle 8’s are welcome here.

-Mix levels
Here's my SNARE track...sorry bout the song in the background there...Straight-forward catagory. Well balanced mixes score 3, daring mixes that works score higher, daring mixes that dont score lower.

-Producing
How cool did your production make the singer sound? Is he getting laid or is he going home to mamma? Simple catagory. Award points for how complimentary the music is to the voice and content of the song.

-Intro
Will that A&R jerk who only listens to the first 15 seconds listen to the rest of it? Intro's are vitally imporatant in today's music.Will your intro stand out above the rest? How creative is it? Does it work?,etc...

-Commerciality
If I play this in a club am I going to have a diarrhea epidemic on my hands?Understand this catagory: It is not to do with pop or dance. It is more intricate than that. The question asked is this: Did the producer clearly hit the market he seemed to be aiming for? That market can be pop,rock,country,reggae,worldmusic or anything. Clear cut mixes score high. Ambiguous or watered down versions score low.

-Artistry
Can you cut your ear off now and get away with it? Will your mix, if it gets dug up 1000 years from now, say something about your heart and soul to the listeners? Will it represent something about humanity that is real or will it merely make them shake their heads and go " another one after that money stuff". Did you do this production to say something or to impress your neighbors?

-Arrangement
Will everybody please play the little black dots, all the little black dots and nothing but the little black dots! This has to do with the use of various instruments and what they are playing and when. Interesting and effective use of instruments, dynamics and space score high. Garage-band (everything as loud as possible all the time) approaches score low.

-Timing and Tuning
One of the worst crimes commited by beginners is not paying enough attention to timing and tuning. Everybody scores 3 for this, with less for out of tune instruments and out of time stuff, and more for creative use of timing and signatures as well as application of tunings to drums,percussion and relevant instruments. Also take into account successfull use of sliding notes and the like.

---------------------------------------------

[img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] At each category will be two scores, one by Peter and one by Roy.
At the end of the catagories will be a total score that will determine your ranking in this shootout, as well as comments on the entry by Roy and Peter respectively. We would like to stress that contestants should not take any comments made by us personally. We deliberately decided to be brutally honest about this, because there are enough people in each of our lives that will lie to us in order to avoid confrontation, or who can honestly not listen to our creations objectively. These include parents, girlfriends, friends, wives and pets. These people are, however much we love them, our greatest enemies when it comes to being creative, because they can NEVER be objective. We hope you all forgive us for what we are about to do to you. We do it because a bloody nose now is a lot better than a bullet later.
---------------------------------------------
[img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] But before we go any futher, here is the link to the original recording, done by BigRedButton (Jackson Jackson). It was the vocal track from this recording that was used for this shootout. This will be the first time that the entire recording will be heard by the contestants though.

http://www.jacksonjackson.homestead....own_-_Demo.mp3

Hope you all enjoy it!We would like to take this opportunity to thank Bigredbutton for letting us use his song, and also to the DUC, and the DUC Moderators, for letting us run this “ competition” here at our favourite spot on the web. Finally, a big thank you to the guys who had the guts to enter . You knew there was no prize , and you knew we were going to be harsh, but not one of you backed out. We will say a bit more about that at the closing paragraphs, but well done for now. Following now you will find the scores, per contestant, and in no specific order. After the last entry, there is a section with every entry’s score, sorted in decending order. So without futher ado, let the games begin!

---------------------------------------------
Name : top1percent (Brad Blocker)
Link :
http://www.mooijmanaudio.nl/burndown-duc.mp3

-Harmony
Peter : 3
Roy : 2
-Originality(Creativity)
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Use of plugins(effects)
Peter : 3
Roy : 2
-Use of plugins(dynamic)
Peter : 3
Roy : 2
-Structuring
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Mix levels
Peter : 4
Roy : 2
-Producing
Peter : 3
Roy : 1
-Intro
Peter : 2
Roy : 2
-Commerciality
Peter : 3
Roy : 2
-Artistry
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Arrangement
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Timing and Tuning
Peter : 3
Roy : 3

Total score: 66

Roy’s Comments: This is a good effort and approach. One thing though, in this particular key, the melody was sung in a major scale. The verse written here is in a minor key, which clashes with the vocal, and make him sound out of tune in places. The choruses are better, and it has heart.

Peter’s Comments : topofthepile thrills with a feather light mix that is easy on the ear while still being gutsy and gritty. His approach is not the most original in the world, but the simplicity of his arrangement saves him and then some.The things that fails him the most is momentary lapses in timing,that fall well oputside the scope of "feel", some dubious tuning on some of the rythm ax, and a lack of attention to the sounds of his rythm and lead guitars.The other thing is the solo, which , as solo's go, would be edited out of the song by the first engineer to come along. These days, if you want to put a guitar solo in a song, you have to remeber that you are going up against every axman who has gone before.Ripping a couple of notes does not cut it anymore.The minimalistic approach can work, but then you have to be extra carefull what you play and where.Things like tone become more important the fewer notes you play.and in a simple arrangement like this doubly so.I know I always tell everyone to keep it simple, but simplicity does come with its own can of worms.Because there is less, the less becomes more important.Mr Percentipede has already figured out the keep it simple stupid part. All he needs to do now is to raise the bar a bit as far as sonics are concerned. Be very very very carefull what you make your electric guitars sound like. The clean sounds here, combined with the accoustics and especially the chord progression, is screaming metalica. This is not good.A unique sound is very very important.By this I do not mean to say one must make an artist sound weird.What I mean to say is that you must make an artist sound like himself.For example, if a new REM, or Bruce Sprinsteen,or U2 song, that I have never heard before comes on the radio right now, I will know withing the first 30 seconds who it is, because they each have a unique sound. Achieving this is one of the most difficult things a producer has to do( the producer and engineer usually has to do this for an artist because mostly artists dont have a clue).With a voice like BRB's, it is quite difficult.He has a great voice, but it also has a lot of versatility to it, so much so that, as is illustrated in this shootout, it is eaqually easy to turn him into Bono than it is to turn him into Kenny Loggins. More care must therefore be taken with his music and material. Very few entrants into the shootout have thus far managed that.All that said, I must confess this is one of my favourite entries.The idea and approach is solid.It needs care and attention though.A little water and a lot of manure and this young grasshopper will turn into a producer of note(Hey! a corny pun!).Seriously though,top1percent has the touch.He just needs to grow into his shoes now.

---------------------------------------------
Name : FrankLP (2)
Link : http://www.uniqueverse.com/Burn%20Down%20II.mp3

-Harmony
Peter : 2
Roy : 2
-Originality(Creativity)
Peter : 3
Roy : 2
-Use of plugins(effects)
Peter : 2
Roy : 2
-Use of plugins(dynamic)
Peter : 2
Roy : 2
-Structuring
Peter : 3
Roy : 2
-Mix levels
Peter : 2
Roy : 2
-Producing
Peter : 2
Roy : 2
-Intro
Peter : 2
Roy : 2
-Commerciality
Peter : 1
Roy : 2
-Artistry
Peter : 3
Roy : 2
-Arrangement
Peter : 1
Roy : 2
-Timing and Tuning
Peter : 0
Roy : 1

Total score: 46

Roy’s Comments: Interesting effort. My main complaint is the lack of dymanics, in that both the verse and chorus parts are almost indistinguishable. There is a 'drone' almost throughout. This could have been developed better.

Peter’s Comments : This is the second of the mixes Frank sent in. This was a bit of a rush Job, Frank told us. I cant help but feel that this would have been an interesting and daring mix to listen to if it wasnt out of time to the point of sin. Because of that it is impossible to tell what could have been. I like the 80 style synth work, but I feel that Francula is trying to use them to mask the drumming, which is, in a word, awfull.This mix would have been a 100% better if it lost all the percussion and most of the basssynth and piano parts.

---------------------------------------------
Name : FrankLP (1)
Link : http://www.uniqueverse.com/Burn%20Down.mp3

-Harmony
Peter : 4
Roy : 2
-Originality(Creativity)
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Use of plugins(effects)
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Use of plugins(dynamic)
Peter : 3
Roy : 2
-Structuring
Peter : 3
Roy : 2
-Mix levels
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Producing
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Intro
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Commerciality
Peter : 4
Roy : 2
-Artistry
Peter : 3
Roy : 2
-Arrangement
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Timing and Tuning
Peter : 2
Roy : 2

Total score: 68

Roy’s Comments: Nice piano sound and chording. But while the musical approach is unique, some of the verse chords are not consistent with the tone of the lyric, in my opinion. This could be developed better overall, but a good effort nonetheless.

Peter’s Comments : Mr Francula blesses us with two offerings, this one the first and by a million miles the better one. What can I say, simplicity is one of the most basic and important rules in pop. If you do NOTHING else, at least keep it simple. This production beats the panties off plenty others simply because its simple. But I do feel it could do with a good Science Experiment or two. Unfortunately Frakie goes to Bollywood's perfect production is ruined by a perfect lack of timing in the pad department. With a little attention to timing, Frank would be there and, Frankly, way ahead of the curve.

---------------------------------------------
Name : Moonmusic (Ted...er..sorry...Jo Mentzer)
Link : http://members.myactv.net/~dwayne.me...ed_Mentzer.MP3

-Harmony
Peter : 3
Roy : 2
-Originality(Creativity)
Peter : 2
Roy : 3
-Use of plugins(effects)
Peter : 4
Roy : 2
-Use of plugins(dynamic)
Peter : 5
Roy : 3
-Structuring
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Mix levels
Peter : 5
Roy : 3
-Producing
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Intro
Peter : 5
Roy : 3
-Commerciality
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Artistry
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Arrangement
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Timing and Tuning
Peter : 3
Roy : 3

Total score: 81

Roy’s Comments: I was quite impressed by this one.... one of the best efforts here. Good job on overall production. However this is another example of the verse melody being sung in a major key, while the chords are in a minor key. This makes the singer sound out of tune in spots. The choruses work well however, with the mood of the lyric and vocal. Good effort.

Peter’s Comments : Theodorosaurus Moonmusic thrills our ears with his fine smooth work. He is definitively a profesional lurking amongst the sheeps.His mix and arrangement has depth and dynamic, it swoops and soars, it thrills and chills, and I am afraid we will soon loose this gentleman rocker to the TDM forums.But he seems to stop himself just short of perfection.He needs to let it hang out a bit more,take chances and let rip.And no, by the out of time snare in verse two does not qualify as letting it hang out.Thats just plain simple out of time.The mix wont age well because its just a little too perfect.It sits too well, and goes down a little too much like water and too little like a stiff one. He is the type of Dude who drives a Porche, but never breakes the speedlimit. The day he lets loose his competition will be in serious trouble. Moon, you have proven that you know all the rules, now, pretty please with sugar on top, start breaking them.

PS.Wouldnt this mix fit perfectly onto the "Top Gun" soundtrack? Congratulations on turning BRB into Kenny Loggins!

---------------------------------------------
Name : Mr Seven (Darren Valen)
Link : http://www.cyberdreamstudios.com/mp3/burn_dv.mp3

-Harmony
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Originality(Creativity)
Peter : 4
Roy : 2
-Use of plugins(effects)
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Use of plugins(dynamic)
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Structuring
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Mix levels
Peter : 5
Roy : 3
-Producing
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Intro
Peter : 3
Roy : 4
-Commerciality
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Artistry
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Arrangement
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Timing and Tuning
Peter : 3
Roy : 1

Total score: 80

Roy’s Comments:Nice effort. Yet, while this production was done fairly well, I felt musically it would serve another lyric better, mainly in the verses. The background music of the verses seems too cheerful for the tone of the lyric. The chorus fits better. This is a good effort though.

Peter’s Comments : Where the hell did Meeeestir 7 pull this one out ?!? Clearly he sat down and thought about this a bit, and then set about making it work. A bit more care could have been taken with the accoustic sound. In fact something more creative and daring could have been done with it. In an approach like this one can get away with almost everything. But Darrenopoulus didnt take the bait. He kept it simple and pulled off one masterfull production. But I can point out a couple of untaken opportunities that would have yielded results. The vocals on the choruses are begging to be messed with.The synth riff could have changed on the bridges for a dramatic buildup to the chorusses.And of course, that accoustic has got to go. The riff or rythm effect it does is cool.But the accoustic is not pulling off the idea you had in your head.
But that's about it. With an arrangement as good as this, it becomes very easy to start secondguessing yourself as to relative levels of things like snares, hats and pads.But the truth is that, because the arrangement is kept so simple, one has a lot more leeway with levels ,and so , mixes like this are frequently perfect after simply throwing up the faders. The hard work was done before the mix stage already.

---------------------------------------------
Name : Murph16 (Bill Murphy)
Link : http://www.murphonics.com/pages/mp3.html

-Harmony
Peter : 5
Roy : 3
-Originality(Creativity)
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Use of plugins(effects)
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Use of plugins(dynamic)
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Structuring
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Mix levels
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Producing
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Intro
Peter : 5
Roy : 3
-Commerciality
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Artistry
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Arrangement
Peter : 5
Roy : 3
-Timing and Tuning
Peter : 4
Roy : 3

Total score: 85

Roy’s Comments: To me, this was a possible winner. I was very impressed with this effort. It has a solid core, in both verse and chorus, but I would have liked it to be developed more as it went along. Overall, very clean, though. Good guitar work. This production has very good possibilities. Good focus on what was given to work with.

Peter’s Comments : Wowwieeee!!!Again!again!!
The only thing I can say is that the vocal level is just a smidgen higher than I'd like it. Velocimurph is one gutsy producer. In his tinkerings he breaks the song in so many places it almost stumbles in through the modem. A lot of tricks he pulls off, a lot he doesnt. Doesnt matter. That is going to make the mix age better. In a world of perfect swedish productions, the only other guy who is going to make it is the gambler. Murph, if I can give you one tip it would be to get into more original synth sounds and loops. The ones you are using are fine ,but dated.With original or modern samples, this production would be a perfect 10.

---------------------------------------------
Name : Soundsurfr
Link : http://www.soundsurfr.com/song%20fil...20Down%203.mp3

-Harmony
Peter : 4
Roy : 4
-Originality(Creativity)
Peter : 2
Roy : 4
-Use of plugins(effects)
Peter : 3
Roy : 4
-Use of plugins(dynamic)
Peter : 2
Roy : 4
-Structuring
Peter : 4
Roy : 4
-Mix levels
Peter : 4
Roy : 4
-Producing
Peter : 3
Roy : 4
-Intro
Peter : 5
Roy : 4
-Commerciality
Peter : 4
Roy : 4
-Artistry
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Arrangement
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Timing and Tuning
Peter : 3
Roy : 2

Total score: 85

Roy’s Comments:This also was a possible winner, in my opinion. I thought the approach for this went well with the mood of the lyric. I definitely felt it complimented the singer. The first verse drew me in and held my attention until the chorus, which was unexpected and interesting, as it should be. One thing, while the concept worked for bringing the next verse back in, the timing feels rushed there, and noticeably loses it's footing. But, I have a feeling this was done in an abnormally short time frame.
If I were the artist choosing amongst all the approaches here for my next CD, I would likely choose to develop this one, at least musically.

Peter’s Comments : Soundsurfroplodicus brings a strange mix indeed. It promises brilliance but does not deliver. This man seems to be spending too much time trying to impress others, while inside him lurks an animal that would rule the faders once released. Once he learns the value of simplicity and space he will arive.The most terrible thing of all is that he teases with simplicity in verse 1, and pulls it off fabulously.That pedaling accoustic works a charm.Interestingly the idea of pedaling , meaning the hovering on a root note or chord for the duration of a movement, originated during the baroque era. Baroque music also delivered to us the walking bass , or "basso profundo" which later on became such an assential part of swing music.Anyone guess who the most famous baroque composer was? But I digress...From there on he seems to try to put a little of everything in there. THIS IS NOT SOUP! This is an above average mix, but surfr shoots himself in the foot at frequent intervals.He is a very creative man and comes up with beautifull music to feed his hardrive.He then proceeds to hide it in his mixes so that no-one can notice his obvious talets. When he has hidden his stunningly appropriate loop enough so that only cats can hear it, he then paints over it with pads.A very odd case indeed.If I had to troubleshoot this mix,I would ask mr surfr to pick his 3 favourite most essential tracks and force himself to do the entire mix with them alone, but using them in any way imaginable. This should force him to break through his current restraints.Then a nicely executed science experiment on top of that will work wonders.He has stunning ideas, but they get watered down in a busy mix. Mixers are the fighter pilots of the music industry. You have to be bold, simple and practical all at the same time. All that said, watch this guy, he is up and coming.Although Soundsurfr is definitivly an artist worth remebering, he has not yet cottoned on the how good he actually is.

The most famous composer of the baroque era was Johan Sebastian Bach.

PS.Go easy on the compressor there mate!

---------------------------------------------
Name : Greg Mullins
Link :
http://www.geocities.com/moondigi001

-Harmony
Peter : 2
Roy :1
-Originality(Creativity)
Peter : 3
Roy :1
-Use of plugins(effects)
Peter : 3
Roy :1
-Use of plugins(dynamic)
Peter : 3
Roy :1
-Structuring
Peter : 3
Roy :1
-Mix levels
Peter : 1
Roy :1
-Producing
Peter : 1
Roy :1
-Intro
Peter : 1
Roy : 1
-Commerciality
Peter : 2
Roy :1
-Artistry
Peter : 2
Roy :2
-Arrangement
Peter : 2
Roy : 1
-Timing and Tuning
Peter : 0
Roy :1

Total score: 36

Roy’s Comments: I think Greg was forced to do this in too much a hurry, and the production suffers as a result. Yet, behind it all, there is actually a quite solid arrangement. I must say though, the percussion is simply bad, and actually takes one's attention away from the song itself. We have to shave points for the overall timing problems as well. But, the music underneath, if developed, has the potential to be a good indie song.

Peter’s Comments : In Greg's defense we have to say that he apologized for this in advance, citing the fact that he had only a little bit of time to work on it.Our Mr Greg shows a fine ear for a rock arrangement, especially when it comes to melodic instruments. I would love to hear what he can do if I force him to use a piano. Unfortunately his hard work is ruined by poor drum arrangements, and, lets face it, incredibly bad drumming. An otherwise perfect rock track is completely ruined by allowing the studio-manager's kid to play the splash and ride, anywhere and everywhere, and louder than the 10 commandments.During the turnarounds said kid also gets to play the hat apparently. Gregorosaurus has a firm grasp of indie rock, especially that of the Irish variety.This track would slip stunningly onto an early U2 album, or even a Big Country album..."peace in our time" comes to mind immediately. So there's nothing wrong with the ears here. The path to production perfection is wide open, just string up the drummer. The lack of scores on this track is mostly entirely due to the drums. I hope this does not stop you from trying again at the next shootout. Believe me, better drumming will make all the difference in the world.

---------------------------------------------
Name : Captain Pants - the Arson Mix
Link :
http://www.mp3.com/agenda_entropy

-Harmony
Peter : 3
Roy : 1
-Originality(Creativity)
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Use of plugins(effects)
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Use of plugins(dynamic)
Peter : 2
Roy : 2
-Structuring
Peter : 3
Roy : 4
-Mix levels
Peter : 3
Roy : 2
-Producing
Peter : 3
Roy : 2
-Intro
Peter : 3
Roy : 2
-Commerciality
Peter : 2
Roy : 1
-Artistry
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Arrangement
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Timing and Tuning
Peter : 1
Roy : 2

Total score: 61

Roy’s Comments: While this is artistically bold (which is good), it's also a little reckless. The verse is sung in a major key, but the music is written in a minor key, which clashes with the vocal in spots, and sounds like the singer's to blame. Also, I would definitely work on the kick sound, since it is almost ever-present. It is too muffled and bassy, as if hitting a wet box. Some of the synth sounds are rather dated. But, it is a good artistic effort, and might do well with some development. A heartfelt effort that may be a diamond in the rough.

Peter’s Comments : Captain Pantzer sends two missiles. This being the Arsonic one. He likes playing with samples and stuff, and he is damn good at it. He also isnt afraid to take chances, and creates a building production that will not only force any teen to eat more guronzan filled lollipops, but loops as if a monk asked it too. In this genre of music, on think is more important than anything else...yes, even more important that the dreaded bass drum....it is TIMING, and timing is the only cryptonite of any value I could find here. With Dance music...ANY dance music, if its out of time, then it is out of time. The timing problems here seem to be mainly due to the faulty stretching/shortening of regions.More patience will get that right.In the scheme of things it doesnt seem like such a big issue.But believe me, its plenty enough to torpedo a career.Fix that and doors WILL start opening.Once you kill the timing demon,your mixes will suddenly start opening up and creative possibilities will present themselves like orphans at your door.At the moment one's imagination struggles to hear what COULD be there, because your tapping feet are playing catchup all the time.

---------------------------------------------
Name : Captain Pants - the Haunted House Mix
Link :
http://www.mp3.com/agenda_entropy

-Harmony
Peter : 3
Roy : 2
-Originality(Creativity)
Peter : 5
Roy : 3
-Use of plugins(effects)
Peter : 3
Roy : 1
-Use of plugins(dynamic)
Peter : 3
Roy : 1
-Structuring
Peter : 3
Roy : 2
-Mix levels
Peter : 3
Roy : 2
-Producing
Peter : 2
Roy : 2
-Intro
Peter : 4
Roy : 1
-Commerciality
Peter : 3
Roy : 2
-Artistry
Peter : 3
Roy : 2
-Arrangement
Peter : 3
Roy : 2
-Timing and Tuning
Peter : 3
Roy : 2

Total score: 60

Roy’s Comments:An artistic endeavor, but too many effects going, perhaps especially on the vocal. The effect used on the vocal is so drastic, I expected it to be used only in the intro. But, it remained, and should probably switch back to something human. Highly creative effort, though.

Peter’s Comments : This is Pantoffolous' Haunted house mix.Captain Pantstein takes us on a journey that would be well worth taking in a dark room sitting between the speakers after smoking a fat one.He gets away from his timing troubles on the arson mix, and kicks some serious pant innards.But somehow he looses the song in it all.When one gets this creative with a song, it gets more important not to loose sight of the song itself, and not to end up sounding like another kid with a synth. Pants doesnt, but he did ditch the song after the first verse and opted instead to go on an exploration of editing capabilities. It is still very entertaining, but one has to pull back too much paint to get to the song. This guy is creative in the first degree, but does not pay enough attention to the message of the song. Check out a double album called " Nirvana Lounge" for a look at just how creative and expressive dance can be. The million dollar question is of course "If I take the vocals away,what would change?" and if the answer is anything less than "EVERYTHING" then you are probably producing for yourself instead of everyone else.On a different note, I was hoping that at least one dance music daredevil would climb into BRB's vocal track and cut out one or two choice samples and produce around that.If you do that, then everything changes of course. Then you have a lot more freedom to loose the song's original mood and meaning.But all in all, not a bad job from Mr Pants here,not a bad job at all...

---------------------------------------------
Name : Ptrbas (Pieter Koolhaas)
Link : http://www.pkoolhaas.demon.nl/burndown.mp3

-Harmony
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Originality(Creativity)
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Use of plugins(effects)
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Use of plugins(dynamic)
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Structuring
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Mix levels
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Producing
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Intro
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Commerciality
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Artistry
Peter : 4
Roy : 4
-Arrangement
Peter : 4
Roy : 4
-Timing and Tuning
Peter : 2
Roy : 2

Total score: 80

Roy’s Comments: Very, very good effort. You've crafted a very fine song here. I do feel that the verses seem almost too sweet for the subject matter (the lyric). But the choruses fit well. The instrumentation (guitars, mainly) could be much tighter, but their sound is fresh and present. A good artistic endeavor.

Peter’s Comments : Ptrbasaurus Rex comes up with a production that makes me think back to the old smokey days. It’s a light effective production, and although he commits a few naughties in the verses as far a chords against the melody goes, get gets away with it admirable. I realy realy enjoyed this production, but in the end Pieter missed the song completely. This dude is way too happy I guess. The song is way too sweet. It would have made an excellent lovesong as it is, but this just aint a lovesong. Ptrpumpupthebass’ guitarwork is very enjoyable and very well executed.This is a guy that I would love to spend some quality time in a studio with. The sounds of his axes verge on dated but comes across as vintage rather. This could very well have been my favourite favourite favourite if he didn’t drop the timing on the turnarounds and if he lost the corny solo.
Basically he stepped into the same hole as top1percent : He played a solo because, in all honesty, he had a gap in the song and couldn’t or wouldn’t think of something better to do with it. The days of solo for solo’s sake are over.And good riddance. But in any event, this production is about as close as I have come to being tickled pink.

---------------------------------------------
Name : Stuart Tichenor
Link : http://users.simplyfredericksburg.co...%20Stut5-2.mp3

-Harmony
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Originality(Creativity)
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Use of plugins(effects)
Peter : 2
Roy : 2
-Use of plugins(dynamic)
Peter : 2
Roy : 2
-Structuring
Peter : 3
Roy : 3
-Mix levels
Peter : 2
Roy : 2
-Producing
Peter : 2
Roy : 2
-Intro
Peter : 5
Roy : 4
-Commerciality
Peter : 2
Roy : 2
-Artistry
Peter : 4
Roy : 3
-Arrangement
Peter : 2
Roy : 4
-Timing and Tuning
Peter : 3
Roy : 3

Total score: 67

Roy’s Comments: Fresh musical approach in the chords behind the verse. The chorus could be better, I think. But what seemed obvious is that the overall mix seems too 'safe'. The overall volume could come up quite a bit. But, I think the music behind the verses give it a comtemplative mood that fits well. Really unique approach on those verses, and a good effort overall.

Peter’s Comments : Stuartopplinggiants has a halo. He has the touch of an angel which he wields with love and care to create passages that could very well be described as breathtaking. But being the naughty god that he is, he uses cliched, corny guitar rythms and licks to bludgeon his good works to death with. And if that was not enough, he tries to get away with it by using even blander drum patterns under it. One day Stuartnotsolittle will wake up and walk into a vynil shop filled with bored DJ’s. Stuartist will listen to some good loops and realise the possibilities, and his life will change for ever. What a talent.

---------------------------------------------

[img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img] So, there you have it in all its gory glory.We hope you have enjoyed this shootout as much as we have! We also hope that everyone takes something away from this.We certainly have also learned from it. The final scores are thus ( In decending order) :

10. GregM (36)

09. FrankLP/Mix2 (46)

08. Captain Pants-Haunted House Mix (60)

07. Captain Pants-Arson Mix (61)

06. Top1percent (66)

04. Stut5 (67)

04. FrankLP/Mix1 (68)

03. Mr.7 (80)
03. Ptrbas (80)

02. MoonMusic (81)

01. Murph (85)
01. Soundsurfr (85)


[img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] Well done to Murph16 and Soundsurfr. But we have to say that the scores fell as they fell. Between the top 5 or 6 mixes there was not that much to choose, and scores are actually a lot closer than it seems. But congratulations to the joint winners ( no, you don’t win a joint!) and congratulations to all the runners up too.

We would like to say in closing, that not in one single case did we hear anything calling for the line “Keep your dayjob”. In all the entries are indications of talent, but in varying degrees of development. Each contestant has it in them to deliver productions that are far ahead of the pack, and in these offerings are proof of that. Production is very much an experience game, and mixing has a lot to do with attitude. The talent required for these are either present in a person or not. It is present in every entry here. What made the difference was the varying degrees of experience and attitude. But both of these things can be developed, with enough time, effort, concentration and control of egos. We would like to wish every entrant the best of luck with their careers. You have all shown , by entering, an understanding of one of the cardinal rules of business : You have to be in it to win it.
This applies to all matters in life, and by trying out everything, like this shootout, you have already seperated yourselves from the rest and moved up a notch. Remember that the only way to be 100% sure of failure is not to try. And regardless of how well or how poorly you did in this specific competition, by merely entering into it you have done yourself and your career a favour, because trying to succeed is a habit one has to learn. Succeeding is the habit that follows it.

We were concerned about the feelings of the contestants, but in the end decided to ignore that. To be a professional in the music industry you have to be a rubber ball, and anyone who struggles to bounce back from a few pointers should not be here anyway. We hope that everyone can learn something from these songs.

So keep your chins up and your buttocks clenched! This battle is over but there is a long war ahead.

Until next time...

Best wishes

Roy & Peter
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-05-2002, 03:26 PM
Mr_Seven Mr_Seven is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Fullerton, CA, USA
Posts: 1,588
Default Re: Peter & Roy\'s PTLe Shootout 1: ~FINAL RESULTS~

Let me be the first to say an official thanks in this thread to Roy and Peter for all the hard work and inventiveness in this contest. Thanks for the honesty and cander that we musicians and artists have a hard time finding without a bias. I'll comment more later. Thanks again.
__________________
Darren Valen
Cyberdream Studios
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-05-2002, 03:54 PM
FrankLP FrankLP is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Omaha
Posts: 150
Default Re: Peter & Roy\'s PTLe Shootout 1: ~FINAL RESULTS~

Roy & Peter,
Great job on the scores & comments! Thanks for coordinating this, and lending us your ears.

Both your takes are absolutely right-on as far as my efforts go. I guess I'll park that getaway car until next time.

Look forward to the next one. [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

FrankLP
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-05-2002, 04:18 PM
gabriel_p gabriel_p is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dominican Republic
Posts: 792
Default Re: Peter & Roy\'s PTLe Shootout 1: ~FINAL RESULTS~

I have not read this thread yet, but WOW what a post Roy and Peter, you need some well deserved rest now, go to a hotel & resort, or maybe a spa or something (separatelly). [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
__________________
Take Care,
Gabriel.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-05-2002, 04:21 PM
Mr_Seven Mr_Seven is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Fullerton, CA, USA
Posts: 1,588
Default Re: Peter & Roy\'s PTLe Shootout 1: ~FINAL RESULTS~

Roy -- a 1 on timing an tuning????
__________________
Darren Valen
Cyberdream Studios
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-05-2002, 04:23 PM
BigRedButton BigRedButton is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 1,292
Default Re: Peter & Roy\'s PTLe Shootout 1: ~FINAL RESULTS~

Holy Cow!

I feel like Madonna or something. Hearing my vocal track mixed, remixed and tweaked six ways to Sunday was way too cool. Really you guys, I'm humbled and feel very fortunate to have taken place in this shootout!

Props to ALL of you for your hard work and creativity! Who would have thought that we'd hear everything from piano ballads to techno, synth pop to folk rock all from ONE vocal track!

Thanks to Peter & Roy! In my opinion you guys hit the nail on the head with your reviews, and I agree with almost all of your observations. I found it interesting that there were so many common threads within the songs, like the assumption that the verses were in a minor key due to the sullen sound of the melody. However, I thought there would be at least a few entries that would end up sounding like my original track. Much to my surprise and delight, NONE of them sounded at all like my track. How cool!

I'd love to get all of your thoughts on hearing my track after working on your own arrangements!

All of you should be very proud; you all have bright futures ahead of you!

Thanks again for a really fun ride!
__________________
"Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion."

BigRedButton / Jackson Jackson
www.jacksonbjackson.com
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-05-2002, 04:28 PM
stut5 stut5 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Fredericksburg,Va 22407
Posts: 479
Default Re: Peter & Roy\'s PTLe Shootout 1: ~FINAL RESULTS~

Peter & Roy,
First of all thanks for doing this.I have learned alot already from having done this.And I agree with your comments.My Korg T-3 drumsounds are definetly in need of retirement.Thus my Yamaha Motif looms closer each day.Still have to sell the wife.BRB I love the chorus you have on your original.Thanks Again Peter & Roy.Look forward to #2 [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img] Stu
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-05-2002, 04:41 PM
skip b skip b is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gray,La.
Posts: 237
Default Re: Peter & Roy\'s PTLe Shootout 1: ~FINAL RESULTS~

Nice Work everyone.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-05-2002, 05:00 PM
Mark_Knecht Mark_Knecht is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,500
Default Re: Peter & Roy\'s PTLe Shootout 1: ~FINAL RESULTS~

I'm reading and listening now. Very good work by everyone.

Maybe next time, when my studio isn't in boxes, I can find the time to play also. Very cool stuff

Cheers,
Mark
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-05-2002, 05:03 PM
murph16 murph16 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ft.Lauderdale, FL USA
Posts: 729
Default Re: Peter & Roy\'s PTLe Shootout 1: ~FINAL RESULTS~

Peter, Roy and all:

First of all, let me say that that it seems quite obvious to me that you guys had WAY TOO MUCH fun "scoring" this shootout! You're comments on all of the entries were very entertaining and clever.

They were also equally educational. Listening to the mixes, I picked up at least one pointer from every one! And then, looking at your comments I found even more useful tips from each one.

The thing I'm most impressed with is your attention to musicianship. Both of you appear to be quite musically educated and seasoned and those qualities stayed high on your priority list throughout the entire process. This industry needs more folks like you who blatantly realize that a great mix can't exist unless the key is right, the tuning is on, the progression moves correctly and the mood of the music fits the lyric. Right On! I'm glad you paid close attention to what was going on musically as well as sonically! (is that a word?)\

I must say, though, that I did find some of the Minor/Major "clashes" to be quite interesting and daring in their own right. There's no clear cut "right or wrong" in that instance. It's just sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I try that stuff all the time and those of you who tried it here should be "high-fived" for stepping outside the ordinary.

As for my mix, I can't take any credit for the guitar performances. I must give props to Adam and Dylan from GARAGESTAR for laying them down. Although I had a hand in the arrangement, they MADE the riffs sound that huge and tight!

Jackson...great vocal. Your voice was a pleasure to listen to 893 times! After about 764 times, I started to hear a note that could've used a tiny bit of Auto-Tune treatment, but figured it was just my head playing games with me, so I left it alone. Turns out it didn't need it after all!
By the way, I LOVED your mix and arrangement. It was so cool to finally hear the mysterious "original" idea! A lot of emotion in your work as usual. Nice job!

Whoever said the vocal was a "tad" too loud...I agree! I wanted to "wetten" it up a tiny bit to make it soften up in the mix, but at the last minute (literally) I decided to leave it dry and serious. In my haste, I failed to give it one final listen and it ended up a bit "up front".

But that's why I did this. I wanted to learn more, and you guys were extremely helpful.

I anxiously await the next shootout. I'm sure we'll all be humbled when we have, like, 60 entries and we start discovering some amazing talent in here. I can just imagine the dozens of guys who are listening in on this whole endeavor chomping at the bit to get involved with the next one.

Thanks for bringing us all together with this well planned and nicely executed project!

I can't say how influential and user-friendly (with an emphasis on FRIENDLY) this section of the DUC has been to me in the past year and a half! If I had to rely on just the Digidesign Pro Tools Reference Manual all this time, I'd be cross-eyed and six months behind in progress at this point. Keep up the great work.

Thanks for the kinds words.

Regards,

Murph [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img]
__________________
Bill Murphy
www.murphonics.com
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
SHOOTOUT RESULTS Mini-Me vs. RNP/RNC michaux 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 7 02-05-2003 10:28 AM
Peter&Roy's PTLe shootout ~NOTICE~ Last 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 32 10-05-2002 02:02 PM
Peter & Roy's PTle Shootout ~ Official Kickoff Thread!!! Last 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 37 09-30-2002 05:26 PM
Peter&Roy's PTLe Shootout starts here Last 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 63 09-14-2002 06:41 AM
results:Mic shootout for voiceover DigiDawg General Discussion 1 06-20-2000 09:53 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:41 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com