Dithering Question

[thothprod]

I use a couple of Apogee Rosetta 800 Convertors...in my set up...which as you who are familiar with this unit utilizes "UV22HR"...technology to dither down to 16bit/44.1 for CD burning....
I think the sound is great...but I have been looking at the Weiss rackmount POW-R dithering Unit...and I like that technology also...
Does any one know whether I could back end it to my Apogee and be able to extend my dithering choices...is it do-able.....ANYBODY!!!!




ThothProd

[Haigbabe]

The Weiss unit is excellent. (I love it!)

It connects via AES-EBU XLR connectors.

I don't know what your Rosetta has.

Best regards,

Haigbabe

[Chief Technician]

Pro Tools ships with a POW-r dither plug-in. Unless the Weiss does something else, there is theoretically no need for it. Just use the POW-r dither plug-in in Pro Tools.

[thothprod]

To Halgbabe and chief Technician...

Yea The Rosetta is hooked up via Aes/EBU...so maybe I can pull it off....for chief...I do believe that the powe-r is only as good as the convertor it's running thru...I mean Logic has Pow-r in it's "bounce" function....and even Wave Burner OS9 had POW-r....but they didn't deliver the sound Quality as the Apogee convertors....so when you did your dithering just from those apps. even though you were using the POW-R...your were not getting the same Quality.....I love the Apogee sound...and with an Firewire 800 X-crd you can run it from native systems like logic....and they have a special card to run it right out of PT...so some PT users are using them instead of the 192 interfaces(personal Preference)....
However as I stated their dithering technology is different than POW-R....as I said To Me the sound is great....but I also Love POW-R ....I've heard different dithering used on diferent mixes and havtng access to "UV22HR" and POW-R just extends my dithering Palette...by the way not only does PT utilize POW-r...but so does does Sadie and Sonic Studio(usally though in software version)...as in Logic....but The Weiss is a Hardware..rack mounted version that only does POW-R...I've heard it and it is "SLAMMIN"...thus my question....because I'd like to add it to my Arsenal....


Thanks for both of your inputs.


ThothPod

[Chief Technician]

I do believe that the powe-r is only as good as the convertor it's running thru...I mean Logic has Pow-r in it's "bounce" function....and even Wave Burner OS9 had POW-r....but they didn't deliver the sound Quality as the Apogee convertors....so when you did your dithering just from those apps. even though you were using the POW-R...your were not getting the same Quality

The idea behind dither is that you use it to go from x bits per sample to <x bits per sample. Dither is done in the digital domain. If you are working at 24 bit, then going to a D/A, followed by an A/D to 16 bit, then dither is unnecessary.

If you're saying the POW-r dither doesn't compare to UV22, that is your opinion. The converters, however, are not affecting the dither directly as it is a digital process.

If you are going into your Weiss box digitally just to use POW-r dither and leave it digitally, I think you have invested in something that is unnecessary. If you are using the Weiss D/A converter after the POW-r dither (if it has one), then that is another matter.

[thothprod]

To Chief Technician

Firstly...I do know what dithering is....secondly I stated that I loved Apogee convertors...which utilizes "UV22HR" dithering technology...and I stated that I also Loved POW-R dithering....my whole question was on whether using the WEISS POW-R dithering rackmount unit...I could use it with my Apogee Convertor FOR DITHERING...if that is possible then I could use "UV22HR" dithering(which is what The Apogee convertors use...along with the POW-R dithering Algorithms...in The Weiss Unit...I DID NOT SAY THAT I VIEWED THE ONE TO BE SUPERIOR TO THE OTHER....I LOVE THEM BOTH...and the fact is that for different mixes different dithering CAN bring out different things....I would like that flexibility....And even among PT users I am not alone in believing that the 192's are not the only alternative to Convertors....

Do Examine...from Apogee Site:


Apogee User Stories & Quotes


ROSETTA 800

Paul Dexter – Producers/Engineer
Recent Projects: "Nicole C. Mullen - Warm Place to Rest" and "Patty Cabrera -
Love Someone Like Me"
"After using the AD-8000 for years, I was disappointed in upgrading to Pro Tools HD to be forced to use their 192 I/Os. I was unhappy with them in a few ways, but now with Apogee’s X-HD expansion card, and the Rosetta 800, I have now sold the 192 I/Os and am back in the Apogee fold.
Connecting the Rosetta 800 to Pro Tools is easy and seamless, it even switches itself for the session sample rates, which the AD-8000 didn't do. It's not just me that hears the difference - The sound of the converters in both directions are so much better than the 192 I/O, that even my regular clients and musicians, who hear my projects all the time, are startled at the sound! I'm getting another!"

Deep Sky – Producers/Mixers
Recent Projects: " In Silico", original CD
"Apogee's DA16X is the perfect tool for producers who are heavy on samples and virtual instruments but would rather submix to an outboard console for that rich sound of analog summing. Combine that with a couple channels of Apogee A/D from a box like the Rosetta 800, and you've boosted your DAW into the big leagues."

Paul Mirkovich - Musical Director/Keyboardist
Recent Projects: "Musical Director/Keyboardist for Cher, Janet Jackson and Anstasia"
"The Rosetta 800 sounds amazing! Nuendo and my Rosetta are a great pair. The Rosetta has literally changed the way I make music by giving me a truer picture of what I am recording and mixing."


Jeff Trott– Guitarist, Singer, Songwriter
Recent Projects: "C'mon C'mon - Sheryl Crow", "Dig Up the Astroturf - Jeff Trott"
"I prefer Apogee analog/digital converters because they provide me with
warmth, punch, and accuracy. When I recorded Sheryl Crow's 'Soak Up The
Sun' my Apogee AD-8000 had a lot to do with keeping my recording punchy and
warm. My Rosetta 800 is a huge sonic step above Digidesign's 192 I/O converter."
www.jefftrott.com


Hector Delgado – R&B, Hip Hop Producer
Recent Projects: Andrae Crouch, Method Man, Jil Scott
"As soon as I hooked up the ROSETTA 800 I noticed a huge difference... a better center point and wider stereo image. I had the artist there too and they were blown away!"



Jay Gruska – Composer, Producer, Songwriter
Recent Projects: "Charmed" on the WB and "Hack" on CBS
"When it came to recording acoustic instruments, I thought my room sounded pretty good. That was before the Rosetta 800. Now the sound has all the warmth and presence that I never knew I was missing."
www.jaygruska.com




ThothProd

[Chief Technician]

To Chief Technician

Firstly...I do know what dithering is....secondly I stated that I loved Apogee convertors...which utilizes "UV22HR" dithering technology...and I stated that I also Loved POW-R dithering....my whole question was on whether using the WEISS POW-R dithering rackmount unit...I could use it with my Apogee Convertor FOR DITHERING...if that is possible then I could use "UV22HR" dithering(which is what The Apogee convertors use...along with the POW-R dithering Algorithms...in The Weiss Unit

In light of that, I must have misread your initial post, or I would not have responded the way I did. Yet in theory the POW-r dither, whether on the master fader in PT or in a rackmount unit, should sound the same. If you are using an Apogee for the front end of PT, why not just POW-r dither on the master fader output?

[thothprod]

Chief...That is exactly what I want to use it for ....at the very back ...for the CD burning....sorry if I didn't make that clear.....


ThothProd

[minister]

Yet in theory the POW-r dither, whether on the master fader in PT or in a rackmount unit, should sound the same.

not knowing the answer, i ask the question, is it possible that the WEISS unit sounds better because it has more DSP horsepower than the plug on a master channel? in the same way that an outboard reverb sounds better than a reverb plug because it has more horse power.... the math is the same, to a degree, but a dedicated box can do more math because of the DSP chips and, perhaps there is more under the hood in the dithering process with the box.... theoretically, they would sound the same IF they had the same amount of DSP available to them.

[thothprod]

To Minister...
I don't know the technical answers either...
The fact is that POW-R delivers 3 different dither options...whether as a plug in or as a hardware Rack mounted unit(in fact The Weiss option offers a 4th option...which I don't completely understand)....what I do know however is that they all have a different effect on the mix(This I have heard even with the Pow-r inside Logic's Bounce function as well as in Wave Burner Pro....the Apogee offers another kind of effect on the mix with it's "UV22HR" dithering technology...I Love all the effects that I have heard using both technologys...I don't know if it's really a matter of one being of a higher quality than another...perhaps it's just in the way the different algorithms are configured....In the real World what I have heard with my own ears is that they all have a different effect on the mix...and different kinds of music tends to sound better using different kinds of dithering algorithms....thus my desire to be able to use them at my own discretion...The Apogee is a full on AD/DA convertor with the "UV22HR" dithering built in ...The Weiss Pow-r unit is strictly Pow-r Dithering(...(not a full out AD/DA convertor...And I have read that Apogee Has a new 2 channel AD/DA convetor called the Rosetta 200...which from my reading is much in the mold of the Rosetta 800...and utilizes.the "UV22HR' dithering technology..with something called "CODA"...which to my understanding further enhances the dithering process.....I have not had a chance to check one out...but I have no doubt it will be a quality convertor....that's what Apogee does...But let me stress again that I don't believe it's about any of these products having more or less quality than the other...it's just as I stated they add to the palette that you can use to dither your music...and I would not mind having all of them to work with....Hell there was a guy that came on the forum from Apogee to shed some light on another Apogee concern...I believe on this very thread....wish he would pop up and enlighten us all on this subject a little or lot more.


ThothProd