Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Additional Resources


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > Legacy Products > Pro Tools TDM Systems (Win)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #11  
Old 05-03-2006, 01:48 AM
Bill Rigby Bill Rigby is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Sydney,NSW,Australia
Posts: 189
Default Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM

Hey Nik;
Sorry to rain on your parade;
My understanding is that SCSI drives are better than the SATA solution because of the way the files are cached,(giving you a higher track count).
The SATA / firewire /USB drive (removable or internal) solutions are limited by their track count.
I was told that if you RAID a series of drives that it is seen as only 1 drive therefore your trackcount will be limited to the spec of one drive. (Which is why Raiding isn`t supported).
I know Digi tend to overspec to cover their arse but if anybody is getting a high track count (up to 100 tracks)please shout out.

Tell me if you find out any different

Bill
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-03-2006, 03:52 PM
nikki-k nikki-k is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Hobette Alley
Posts: 2,359
Default Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM

Hi
Track counts...voice use...is only *limited* by the Digi hardware. Basically, it is like any digital mixer: configurable, but with limitations in number of channels.

Next would be computer hardware. In my experience, SCSI (ultra wide) of the highest performance rating will aford one with a bit of an edge, but NOT in track count. OK, that is a lie...track count within a rather large session (full voice use, maxed buss use) with tons of edits (high density) might be comprimised (to a degree). Of course, sample rate can have an impact as well. The biggest consistent advantage I have experienced is that SCSI drives (high quality) "spin up" faster, and thus "press play to audio" time is (significantly?) lower. However, this (once again) will vary with session type and size, and thus significance vs $$$ difference will shift as well.

If one were doing huge sessions with video, SCSI might the answer. If one is doing sessions with tons of editing, and spin up is a major issue, then SCSI is the answer. BUT! I do not see any other reason for SCSI. Pro installations are doing SATA; external, racked (RAID 5 and RAID 0+1 are what I have seen/heard) being most popular.

Prior to running SATA drives, I had two drives in my system: IDE drives, 7200 rpm. I could record 32 tracks at once, none playing back, @ 24/96k. With those 32 playing back, I was still able to record an additional 24 at once (reliably). Returns diminished after that, by about 8 tracks each time I added and continued playing back. I believe at 72 playing back, I had to switch to the system drive for aid. I moved a bunch of tracks to the system drive, and then continued with recording on the audio drive. Attaining the full 96 voice capability was possible with just those two drives. Light edits were also fine, but get into some good, mediumk density edits and things demand reduction in tracks playing back. Not bad IMO! Using dual WD 10K RPM Raptors in round robin (or simply manualy distribute files) does this same scenario up thru medium edits easily. I have not tried adding video, nor have I delved into 192K rate (I simply do not see ANY value in it...sorry...)

SCSI is nice, but I have seen too many pro installs with external, racked RAID enabled SATA solutions, with firewire capabilities for portability, or "flying in" extra files. The caching you speak of simply provides the faster "press play to audio" times. Reliability was also a factor before, but it seems to have diminished returns as well.

Lastly, with a RAID solution that has two drives apearing as one (non-mirrored), the benefit is that the two are seen as one, but perofrmance is (effectively?) doubled. In other words, as data streams to/from the "single drive," it is actually the two drives doing work, thus the capabilities are doubled (for the most part). It is the pipe the data flows thru that presents the biggest problem then. But, SATA is plenty capable to providing a big enough pipe for anything thrown at it.

I only do music, and do not do extremely high density edits. I never excede 128 tracks in regular use (only for testing and such). And I have never needed more than two SATA drives for anything I have done, ever. Of course, that doesnt mean other solutions dont have merit!
__________________
nikki k
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
On the other hand, you have different fingers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikki-k View Post
Sometimes ya just gotta put your tongue on the 9V battery just to see what all the fuss is about.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-04-2006, 12:30 AM
Bill Rigby Bill Rigby is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Sydney,NSW,Australia
Posts: 189
Default Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM

Hi
Track counts...voice use...is only *limited* by the Digi hardware. Basically, it is like any digital mixer: configurable, but with limitations in number of channels.


I can only afford an HD 2. Money is also an issue for me



Next would be computer hardware. In my experience, SCSI (ultra wide) of the highest performance rating will aford one with a bit of an edge, but NOT in track count. OK, that is a lie...track count within a rather large session (full voice use, maxed buss use) with tons of edits (high density) might be comprimised (to a degree). Of course, sample rate can have an impact as well. The biggest consistent advantage I have experienced is that SCSI drives (high quality) "spin up" faster, and thus "press play to audio" time is (significantly?) lower. However, this (once again) will vary with session type and size, and thus significance vs $$$ difference will shift as well.



I work with mainly surround in mind (hence the desire for a high track count).I am also working with High definition Video streaming off a Sata drive and these video`s will be the same Quicktimes that I will be working to within a Pro Tools session. I visited your forum and read about your system, very nice! I also run a second computer with the same Motherboard as you with Gigastudio and Virtual Instruments ,but with a Soundscape Mixtreme. This connects Via 2 TDIFs into an O2R and Streams into Tools via 16 AES.
The computer Specs that I have listed in my earlier reply within this post will hopefully do everything within the same computer, but I have the second computer there if there is a RAM problem.(IE BFD/Gigastudio running with a high track count Tools session and Video simultaneously)



I have not tried adding video, nor have I delved into 192K rate (I simply do not see ANY value in it...sorry...)



I also believe there is little value in the upper sample rates......everything is relative.The upper end audiofile stereo market is very limited, but the surround market, well that is a whole different kettle of fish...............



SCSI is nice, but I have seen too many pro installs with external, racked RAID enabled SATA solutions, with firewire capabilities for portability, or "flying in" extra files. The caching you speak of simply provides the faster "press play to audio" times. Reliability was also a factor before, but it seems to have diminished returns as well.




I agree, SCSI is nice....... and I also think that networking/and file
importability/transportability is important so the USB/Firewire/DVD options are necessary. I also wish I could have all Video/audio Tape formats available for backward compatability but some things you just have to rent per job. (eg Digi Betacams ,HD formats for restripes).Depends on your client ,volume of work and budget.




Lastly, with a RAID solution that has two drives apearing as one (non-mirrored), the benefit is that the two are seen as one, but perofrmance is (effectively?) doubled. In other words, as data streams to/from the "single drive," it is actually the two drives doing work, thus the capabilities are doubled (for the most part). It is the pipe the data flows thru that presents the biggest problem then. But, SATA is plenty capable to providing a big enough pipe for anything thrown at it.




With reference to this last comment, I know Digi overspec to cover there butts as I mentioned before (I am running 5 SCSI drives dedicated to Pro Tools Audio and hoping to achieve the maximum track count ...192)Fingers crossed, but I am hesitant to Raid at all because it is unsupported.

To quote from the Digi Compatability page

Pro Tools|HD and Pro Tools|HD Accel Systems for Windows XP

Hard Drive Minimum Requirements

Dedicated audio drive or drives (internal or external). Recording to or playback from system drives is not supported.
SCSI drives recommended for maximum performance
Support for IDE/ATA, SATA, and Firewire drives listed below
Pro Tools does not support RAID technology. Please do not activate this feature

Note the last line.I wish you luck,.......maybe I am not brave enough



I only do music, and do not do extremely high density edits. I never excede 128 tracks in regular use (only for testing and such). And I have never needed more than two SATA drives for anything I have done, ever. Of course, that doesnt mean other solutions dont have merit!



I have just upgraded from a Mixplus system on a MAC and I did run into DAE errors due to High PCI traffic on Maximum track counts with Video.....It is probably my Meglomania (Composition, Post,Surround etc) that brings me undone but I believe that the research I have put into this system should give enough headroom for all these requirements simultaneously.
I have paid a lot of attention to the overall demands on the computers resources and the only area that I can see will let me down is 32 Bit Window XP`s limit on RAM (4 gig).Obviously the Virtual instruments/Gigastudio rewire instruments will have to bounced down to audio at some point,but hey,we all have to make comprimises somewhere

I`ll let you know how I get on, thanks for the feedback, I think open dialog really helps us all

Keep up the good work (Your site is great and I think it has a big future)

Bill
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-04-2006, 01:10 AM
nikki-k nikki-k is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Hobette Alley
Posts: 2,359
Default Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM

Bill: Thx for the comments, and your posts! The ONLY thing that makes this piece of the DUC work is user participation

As far as RAID goes...this is exactly what I am looking for! Users who have taken a leap, and what they discovered. It is all those I am hoping will pop in from the woodwork, in addition to those using proven, or partially proven, systems. I have posts of users running RAID with success. THIS intrigues me, as it allows for one to begin with small realities, and build to big dreams.

Surround: I work in both stereo and surround (5.1). I keep flopping between 24/44.1k, and 24/96k. To my ears, 24/96k has this...something to it. Combine 24/96k with 5.1, and then do delay comp and high track counts (64-96 voices), and one starts pushing boundaries, and the importance of good data streaming becomes paramount. PCI "clogging" is an issue I faced early on when pushing limits, and the ASUS discovery was a direct result of that. I am hoping a nice dual dual core (or better!) motherboard solution with HD4 capabilities onboard (no expansion chassis) presents itself. A successor to the ASUS P4800-E is sorely needed. But, upcoming/forthcoming technologies are clouding this...sigh..oh well!
__________________
nikki k
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
On the other hand, you have different fingers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikki-k View Post
Sometimes ya just gotta put your tongue on the 9V battery just to see what all the fuss is about.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-04-2006, 02:11 AM
Bill Rigby Bill Rigby is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Sydney,NSW,Australia
Posts: 189
Default Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM

The Motherboard I chose will only support HD3 which I will probably upgrade to when I can,the whole PCIe thing is clouding the issue I agree , the expansion chassis communicating by gigabit ethernet induces latency with RTAS instruments , which as you well know already has its own problems.
I was going to stay on the Mac platform but this was in fact the major reason I didn`t go PCIe and stay on the Mac Platform (plus the fact that I could only afford HD2 and I would get better performance from the PCIX cards)
This would also enable me to use Gigastudio rewired back into Tools. Yay
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-08-2006, 12:00 PM
DigiTechSupt's Avatar
DigiTechSupt DigiTechSupt is offline
Avid
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Worldwide
Posts: 33,460
Default Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM

Quote:
Can anyone else confirm RAID with SATA working with current PT HD software and HD hardware with XP please? If RAID will, in fact, work...well...this is major!

RAID 0? RAID 1? RAID 0+1? RAID 5?
RAID configurations are not supported in any way, shape or form.
__________________
Avid Audio Tech Support
Help us help you - read this before posting
Support FAQ
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-08-2006, 12:31 PM
Brandonx1 Brandonx1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,837
Default Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM

Quote:
Quote:
Can anyone else confirm RAID with SATA working with current PT HD software and HD hardware with XP please? If RAID will, in fact, work...well...this is major!

RAID 0? RAID 1? RAID 0+1? RAID 5?
RAID configurations are not supported in any way, shape or form.
What about using raid just for video playback though a Mojo or V10?
Brandon
__________________
Brandon Howlett
Vibe Audio Post, Inc.
Re-recording Mixer
Custom Build CPU, HDX 1, Omni, 192 I/O Digital
S6 M10 24 fader
Satellite Mac Pro, HDNative, 192 I/0
Black Magic HD Extreme
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-15-2006, 10:35 PM
Bodie Bodie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: PNW, USA
Posts: 212
Default Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM

I'm looking for something comparable to the Allenstein (the system mentioned in the PTLE forum) for those that are using HD.

The Allenstein has the best of breed and certified parts that seem to work well as well as cost effective.

I've been using PTLE for a while and just bought the HD core only to find that my system doens't have long enough slots (it's a mini tower) so I'm immediately in the market for a full size system.

Ideas, pointers and help appreciated.

Reid Lowery
MSN Studios
__________________
i7 950, 12Gb, 3 Tb, Win7-64 and 32bit
PTHD 12.7 HDCore 1 & w/002r
Macbook Pro 4Gb, 500G, OSX 10.6.2
iMac 3.06ghz, 16Gb, 2Tb, OSX 10.6.2
Minimoog Voyager, Liberation, Taurus, Phatty
Korgs, Nords and more
Arp 2600s & Ody
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-15-2006, 11:41 PM
Shan's Avatar
Shan Shan is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Posts: 13,453
Default Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM

Quote:
I've been using PTLE for a while and just bought the HD core only to find that my system doens't have long enough slots (it's a mini tower) so I'm immediately in the market for a full size system.

Ideas, pointers and help appreciated.

Reid Lowery
MSN Studios
I use HD 1 with a Quad Opteron system. Works great.

I use a regular size case but the drive bay chassis was removeable. I got some adaptors to house the drives in the top where the CD/DVD burner is. It actually works out better because there is more air flow around the drives.

Also see "Poor Man's HD Rig" thread.

Shane
__________________
Pro Tools Power User Editing

Give your plug-ins a facelift...and skin 'em!
__________________

"Music should be performed by the musician, not by the engineer."

Michael Wagener 25th July 2005, 02:59 PM

__________________

Pro Tools|HD Native 9.0.1 | Pro Tools|HDX 10.2 | Studio One | REAPER 4.22 | HD OMNI | HoboMac Pro 2.26Ghz Quad-Core | W7 Ultimate 64-bit
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-15-2006, 11:53 PM
nikki-k nikki-k is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Hobette Alley
Posts: 2,359
Default Re: Best Systems and Components for Win HD/TDM

Quote:
I'm looking for something comparable to the Allenstein (the system mentioned in the PTLE forum) for those that are using HD.

The Allenstein has the best of breed and certified parts that seem to work well as well as cost effective.
Reid Lowery
MSN Studios
First: Welcome!
Onto the system...

As Shan has listed, that is a "mega power" machine, but you might find a limit on the number of HD cards you can fit. If you do not plan on expanding anytime soon (year or so), I would give that one a shot.

If you want a rock solid, proven winner that has decent performance, then hit the first post in this thread; it lists some of the parts for building a single core, single CPU machine that is capable of holding 4 HD cards, possibly 5 (depends on video card used). If you hit the link in my sig, it will lead you to pages I made, and the Hardware->Computer part of the site has a very detailed list and explanation of what I used. You can substitute another case, but the rest is pretty much the defacto industry standard for building an HD computer for average performance.

Please keep in mind: Average performance is quite relative. For someone doing huge sessions with video, and using other Avid products (AV10, mojo, etc), a different approach is required, and I have not updated this post to reflect that yet...soon...

I use my system with a bunch of different synths, and it holds it's own; with 4 HD/Accel cards, I only use the host DSP for virtual instruments (basically). For a single HD card, I would recommend something more powerful, since you will be relying on host power for alot.

There are some threads that list cases people have used. I recommend the one I used for a rackmount solution, or if you hit the Sweetwater site, you can see a full tower that is very common that also works. Others here have listed more, and once again- I need to go through all of this and add it to this thread.
__________________
nikki k
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
On the other hand, you have different fingers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikki-k View Post
Sometimes ya just gotta put your tongue on the 9V battery just to see what all the fuss is about.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Are these pc components ok? chazc080488 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 16 08-13-2010 12:20 PM
need help with HD components FMR_Crisis Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac) 9 04-17-2010 06:07 PM
What components lie in the most POWERFUL native PTLE Systems? epu 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 0 07-28-2008 08:18 AM
Will these PC components do the job hws 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 1 08-06-2007 09:22 PM
components rems 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 1 11-19-2001 10:32 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:48 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com