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  #1  
Old 01-13-2016, 04:20 PM
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dr_daw dr_daw is offline
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Default HW insert setup

So I've finally decided to dive into getting my Avalon & Neve setup as HW inserts. I'm having a heck of a time getting them to line up.

PT 12.4, OSX 10.10.5, Saffire Pro 40

So, I'll likely want to print my insert back into the session. I thought the way to do this was, set the insert on the desired track, create a new track, set the input to the appropriate input for the hardware, arm the track and record.

When I do this, oddly enough, the track comes back in AHEAD. So I turned delay comp off, this made the signal come in behind (as expected). I've been trying to dial in the HW delay, but it doesn't seem to be doing anything.

The only way I can get any results is by instead of routing things as above; I set the output of the insert track to a buss, then set the input of the armed track to the same buss. This gets it close, but still not quite there. Sine wave is out by about 9 samples.

I have some pictures, but I needed a break...been at it for 2 hours. SO now here's the questions:

Most effective way to route back onto another track ?

Best way to calibrate and calculate your HW insert Delay? (It's my understanding that it's Samples/Sample Rate = m/s)

Use a printed square wave or sine wave? If so, what frequency?

Pretty pumped that it's working, but it's not quite in phase. Thanks

WG
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Last edited by dr_daw; 01-13-2016 at 07:05 PM.
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  #2  
Old 01-14-2016, 02:15 AM
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Stig Eliassen Stig Eliassen is offline
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Default Re: HW insert setup

From the PT Reference Guide:

Determining Your Hardware’s Insert Delay

Refer to the documentation for your external hardware to see if it identifies the hardware latency, or use the following procedure in Pro Tools to determine the latency for hardware inserts.

To determine your hardware’s insert delay:

1 Ensure that Automatic Delay Compensation is enabled (Options > Delay Compensation).
2 Change your session’s Main Time Scale to Min:Sec.
3 Create two tracks.
4 Place a short tone (or other sound with a definitive beginning) on track 1.
5 Insert the HW insert on track 1.
6 Ensure that only the dry signal is being passed through the device.
7 Bus the output of track 1 to the input of track 2.
8 Record enable track 2 and press Record Enable and Play in the Transport window to play back the audio in track 1 and record it to track 2.
9 After recording, zoom in and measure the difference between where the audio starts in track 1 and track 2. The difference is the value you would enter as your hardware’s insert delay offset.
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Old 01-14-2016, 05:42 AM
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Default Re: HW insert setup

Yup, read that already, tried it. Yeilds the same result. When I calculate the delay, make the change in HW insert, it's generally off by about 9 samples. FWIW, I should've mentioned that I did read and search the reference guide
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Old 01-14-2016, 08:33 AM
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Default Re: HW insert setup

While I agree that it SHOULD come back in time, consider this; If you are recording the result onto a new audio track, its really not being treated as an insert. In that case, I would simply route audio out through the hardware, record it to a new track. Then nudge it into alignment with the original audio. Then think about if all this hassle is worth it
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Old 01-15-2016, 03:29 AM
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Default Re: HW insert setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_daw View Post
Yup, read that already, tried it. Yeilds the same result. When I calculate the delay, make the change in HW insert, it's generally off by about 9 samples. FWIW, I should've mentioned that I did read and search the reference guide
For accuracy, I'd make use of the ADC user offset, found below the track name in the mix window. You enter the negative or positive value in samples. Of course, you'd have to do this manually every time, but that's how it is with 3rd-party interfaces AFAIK.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the unit for user offsets is preference-based.
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Old 01-16-2016, 07:23 AM
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Default Re: HW insert setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig Eliassen View Post
For accuracy, I'd make use of the ADC user offset, found below the track name in the mix window. You enter the negative or positive value in samples. Of course, you'd have to do this manually every time, but that's how it is with 3rd-party interfaces AFAIK.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the unit for user offsets is preference-based.

I'll look into that once I'm done this session over the weekend. Appreciate it

HA! It's border line, Dave, I would just SOOOO love to use the Channel strip on the Avalon. I guess 'technically' it's parallel processing that I"m doing. Although, most times I don't intend on using the dry track. The nudge manually seems to be the consensus.

Thanks for the input guys, it's appreciated. One more coffee, then mixing time
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Old 01-18-2016, 08:04 PM
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Default Re: HW insert setup

Being a linemen, quite often I bring the mantra 'Brute force and ignorance will get the job done!' into the studio. Sometimes it works, sometimes my goon hands mess things up. In this case I persevered!

I've attached some pictures of my journey. I finally got things to lock up on point when using H/W inserts. Here are some notes:

- ADC did nothing
- Using HW Dly I noticed a little bug; I'd make a change, click ok, then go back and check, and it wouldn't have changed!!!

So, after I discovered that, I went back to square one and found the solution. If you make a change in the H/W Delay insert tab; be sure to click out of the edited box and into another. Then click ok.

The documentation indicates to use time when trying to calculate your offset, but the problem with that is when you get close the counter doesn't show micro seconds. I found it more effective and faster to use samples and then convert the samples to m/s. (Samples/Sample Rate, for those who didn't know)

Either way, I'm locked and loaded, and thank god Dave! I don't have to nudge anything. IT NULLS!!! IT NULLS!!!!

Thanks guys for your suggestions and help. This was a nice break from mixing...but I should really get back to work :P
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  #8  
Old 08-20-2018, 05:55 AM
Jeezer Jeezer is offline
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Default Re: HW insert setup

I had similar issues bouncing stuff through analog hardware.

There is a delay that PT doesn't account for, small ms (2ms ish usually it seems for most).


So for me I had 23 samples out. I use commit with the track/io insert (I don't record back through or set up extra tracks PT does that for you - at least now in PT12HD and on AFAIK).

So once you have your given sample offset for your sample rate, you can use something like eventide precision time delay plug to ADD + this sample offset , this plug goes before the hardware i/o insert in PT's insert slots. Disable it after bouncing/commit.

What you are doing in your post, unless your outboard gear isn't pure analog, is basically nothing.
The dialog box for HW IO delays is not meant for (near light speed) analog hardware, and if the only digital part in all this is your audio interface it doesn't mean that either (that's mostly auto-compensated but not quite hence the small error). That small error is put in as above (not in HW IO) and always seems to work. The HW io dialog thing will just offset it even further the wrong way!! As you can't put negative offset (which that would need as it's inverse to what time delay or PT's user offset per track does).

If you don't do that, visually when a bit more zoomed out it may look aligned but if you go right in to the sample level you'll see it's still out.

Important, if you're reusing the sending out track for w/e, remeber to disable the time delay plug. The 'delay' or 'offset' is only to be enabled while the I/O is active (if commiting/bouncing)

Another important note for those who bounce/commit through hardware in newer versions, the per channel user offset (bottom of mixer/faders in mixer view) is not taken into account pre-insert, only post fader, so it wil lhave NO effect on anything you send out to only the return.

So.. if you then dial in say 23 samples on the freshly recorded/bounced/commited track to offset it forward back in line (due to faster converters than AVID's own design which is why it's 'ahead' or 'negative latency' btw) then if you look at the zoomed in new waveform it's missing the first X (23) samples, these got cut off by the commit process. So even though you can get things back in sync 100 by putting a user offset after capture/commit on the new track, the audio is missing some (minor) samples.

Using a plug in time delay like the one mentioned above, before the i/o insert slot is the easiest method.

It allows easy bypassing when done or if not needed from the EDIT window (don't have to bring up the mixer to set user offsets), it will delay and send out audio perfectly so the waveform that comes back is lined up 100% no manual shifts, no user offsets. And it can also have presets stored rather than manually typing in various offsets, and of course you don't need to have loads of offsets all ove rthe mixer.. just capture it in time right this way and forget about it. It's in sync, visually and sample wise. No more offsets, no more plugs needed.

Also if you have an AI that is either avid or built using their protocol/latency/card these will sync up better and your issues may be elsewhere. My post is for the guys using third party USB/Firewire (PRISM etc) that PT doesn't really read the latency of properly like it does with its own hardware (or hardware that's recognized as it)

This is obviously for future readers not for the guy above who wrote this 2 years ago and has probably figured this out or moved on.

Last edited by Jeezer; 08-20-2018 at 06:51 AM.
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