Pro Tools as sequencer vs Cubase/Logic/Sonar etc

[sleepwalk]

Hi people,

I am new to the forum. I am considering getting the Pro Tools M-Powered software. I already have a Delta 1010, and run windows XP, so I am all set. I wanted some feedback on the sequencing capabilities of Pro Tools versus other programs. It is my understanding it is not as good as some of the others ? A little dated maybe ?

My background with sequencing is using the Ensoniq ASR-10 to sample, sequence, and midi control sounds, and also control various other keyboards and racks. My only experience with computer music programs is Adobe Audition, which I use to record and mix my songs (and I like it alot). But now I want to give all those boards and racks a rest and try to do everything within the computer. This idea is really appealing to me. To be able to program, sequence, multitrack record, and mix all within the computer.

From what I understand ProTools is great on the recording, editing side, but on the Midi Sequencing side some of the other programs are "more advanced". Is this true ?

Also, what is the story with the sounds ? Does Pro Tools come with keyboard sounds, and drum sounds, etc, "built-in" ? or do I have to buy that separately and install them ? And are there limitations on what sounds work with Pro Tools, and what ones don't ? And how does that compare to the other programs like Logic and Sonar, do they "come with sounds", and are certain ones compatible and certain ones not ?

I really want to learn Pro Tools, because everyone uses it, but I just want to know if I am going to be facing any limitations and what those might be. I will be doing ALOT of midi sequencing, as well as the recording and editing, and I just want to make sure I've got the right set up for me.

sorry for all the questions...thanks in advance for any responses....cheers !

Jon

some music I do www.myspace.com/bedroomscene

[darkglass]

the bottom line is try everything... then get what works for you. Everyone has different work flow needs. I have used PT 002R and it was fast and easy.. sequencing was just enough. Using VST's is a nightmare... some work... some dont. Cubase is now my tool of choice(does come with vst's and more "stuff") more because of compatability issues (hardware/OS/other software etc). It runs rock solid on my system and takes everything I can throw at it. IMO if you run a studio then PT is the way to go because of the dedicated ICON series consoles (PT was built to replace audio recording equipment). If you want sequencing power and compatability with tons of hardware and software... CUBASE. I dumped the OO2 for m-powered which works with the same fw 410 I use for cubase....just in case I need audio in PT format. And, btw... everyone is NOT using it (PT) check out what the zimmer man uses. Different tools for different jobs... Whaterver... pick Pro Tools and/or Cubase. Standards.

[HotRats]

I own a 002R and I sequence with ProTools.
I work mostly with virual instuments (RTAS, Rewire, wrapped vst) so I work ALOT with midi
(my bass, drums and keyboards tracks are all made inside the box, I only record real guitars,
real vocals and real precussions).

I swithced form Cubase SX to ProTools because I like PT workflow, I like his clear interface
and the fact that PT works "like" a real recorder and a "real mixer".

I usually work with midi while writing down music.
When my song is finished I record all midi traks to audio traks and mix everithing.

My workflow it's a kind of mix between midi sequencing and classic studio traking...
virtual instruments are my musicians, when they have "learned" the parts I record
their perfromance sitting behind "the glass" of my control room).

so...workflow is the magic word. try, if you can, to work with PT and then decide.
I think cubase is a great tool for midi traking but I hate the interface, the thousands of windows
and some other strange things (i.e. fx traks and group traks...why don't call them simply aux?).

In PT there aren't some great midi features like multi channel traks (a midi trk supporting multiple midi channels) or a dedicated drum editor.

but.....you can still do everything. sometimes you'll have to work a bit more, some times a bit less (i.e. editing of midi controllers is really great in PT, imho).

[sleepwalk]

Thanks for the replies. I really appreciate it.

This weekend I went to both Guitar Center and Sam Ash and asked the salespeople there the same questions. One thing that came up is the fact that, in M-Powered, I have 32 audio tracks, and 256 midi tracks. Now this sounds fine, but then they explained that to hear the Midi Tracks, you must use an audio track for each one. So if I have 20 midi tracks, then I only have 12 audio tracks I can use dedicated to real audio ? That sounds pretty limited, especially since in Adobe Audition I am used to having over 100 audio tracks.

Apparently in Cubase you have much more Audio tracks, less limitations that way.

Is there a way to sync Pro Tools to Adobe Audition (or another multitrack audio program), so I can use Audition for the audio, if I need more ?

I have to say I am leaning toward Pro Tools because I want to learn it, but maybe in reality I will have to use both Pro Tools and Cubase....

[spkguitar]

to hear the Midi Tracks, you must use an audio track for each one

That is not true, and it only goes to show that the salespeople don't know what the hell they are talking about.

The 32 track limit is for audio tracks. Audio for MIDI tracks is generally routed through an AUX track (of which, PT allows you 128), and doesn't eat up the 32 audio track limit (unless of course you print the audio "to tape"...)

Bounces (mixdowns) in PT will contain anything that is going out of what you have assigned as the main outputs (typically analog 1&2) so all of the aux tracks are included in whatever you bounce. YOu can leave MIDI in the "virtual" world up to and including the final mix as long as you have the CPU power to drive it.

[sleepwalk]

That is not true, and it only goes to show that the salespeople don't know what the hell they are talking about.

The 32 track limit is for audio tracks. Audio for MIDI tracks is generally routed through an AUX track (of which, PT allows you 128), and doesn't eat up the 32 audio track limit (unless of course you print the audio "to tape"...)

Bounces (mixdowns) in PT will contain anything that is going out of what you have assigned as the main outputs (typically analog 1&2) so all of the aux tracks are included in whatever you bounce. YOu can leave MIDI in the "virtual" world up to and including the final mix as long as you have the CPU power to drive it.

thanks for making this clarification...

now I just want to make sure I understand....I will be able to hear the midi track without using an audio track along with it....but...

the reason the salespeople said that was because, if I wanted to save the session and all the music on CDs or DVDs to take to another studio, for example, then I would have to "record" the midi tracks (and sounds they are playing) to the audio tracks....but I think, there would be ways to save more than 32 audio tracks, this would involve saving a track and then erasing it and then recording the next one, and saving it, and repeating, etc...or doing a bunch of these at the same time....anyway..

now provided the studio I was taking the session to had the same sounds (wave plugins they are called, right ?) I have already I wouldn't even need to record the midi tracks as audio. just save them as midi tracks, and save the session, and whatever audio tracks I have recorded.

am I understanding this all correctly now ? thanks

[spkguitar]

now I just want to make sure I understand....I will be able to hear the midi track without using an audio track along with it...

Yes, you will be able to hear whatever MIDI instrument, hardware or virtual, you have going through the AUX tracks.

the reason the salespeople said that was because, if I wanted to save the session and all the music on CDs or DVDs to take to another studio, for example, then I would have to "record" the midi tracks (and sounds they are playing) to the audio tracks

The only reason why you would have to do that, is if the studio you were going to didn't have the virtual synth plugin that you were using, or if you weren't taking your MIDI hardware synthesizer with you to that studio and they didn't have one like it there. This would be true of ALL of the software Multi-track/sequencers, though; not exclusive to Pro Tools.
Capisca?

Pro Tools also allows you to have 128 audio tracks recorded within a session. The 32 limit is only how many play back at one time (the term is "voiceable"), but using proper engineering techniques, you can submix groups of instruments, drums, vocals, etc. if necessary.

now provided the studio I was taking the session to had the same sounds (wave plugins they are called, right ?) I have already I wouldn't even need to record the midi tracks as audio. just save them as midi tracks, and save the session, and whatever audio tracks I have recorded.

As above, if the studio has the same virtual instruments on their system, and/or if you bring your hardware synths with you (or they have the same ones) you can leave everything MIDI virtual. The only real limitation using virtual synths is CPU power, which depending on the plugin(s) can get used up fairly quickly (again, regardless of which multi-track software you decide apon).

[sleepwalk]

The only reason why you would have to do that, is if the studio you were going to didn't have the virtual synth plugin that you were using, or if you weren't taking your MIDI hardware synthesizer with you to that studio and they didn't have one like it there. This would be true of ALL of the software Multi-track/sequencers, though; not exclusive to Pro Tools.
Capisca?

[/QUOTE]


yes, but....my understanding is, Cubase for example, has sounds, "built-in", so if was just using those sounds, i could take the Cubase session to someone with Cubase and not have to worry about any of that....I think that was the point the salesperson was making.....right ?...

anyway, thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it. I think at this point I am pretty much sold on the M-Powered. It's a good opportunity for me to get into ProTools at a very affordable price, and I'm already set with the Delta 1010 and windows XP. I will need more Ram, I only have 256 right now. I have plenty of hard drive space. Will my processor be okay ? It's a Pentium 4, 1.6 GHz or however they say it. Is that fast enough ? I think they recommend more power don't they ?

thanks again for all the help!

[ThunderKyss]

you can have 128 audio tracks...128 tracks of audio data in your project. If you take it to a studio with M-Powered, or LE, they like you will only be able to hear 32 voices at a time. That could very well mean 32 tracks, or you can bus 4 tracks to an aux bus, 32 times, and you'll hear all your tracks(in theory, I've never tried......and I don't know how many aux buses M-powered/LE gives you).

Regardless though, if you take your 128 tracks to a TDM based studio, you don't need to worry about that.

As long as they haver the same VSTs, you don't need to bounce to audio.

[antztudio]

I enjoy ptmp,but not as much sonar4 .p.t is too limiting in terms of audio track count(for what i do anyways)And this ilok thing is a bit of a hassle with plugs etc.I think its worth spending the extra and going for S4,hey,try the demo and see what you think.Also i have a high spec machine with approved chipset etc,etc,yada, yada,etc.And STILL get buffer related drop outs and other weirdness that i DONT get with S4,Best,Antz