Over Fifty sold so far...

[uno1234]

Look, I'm no product designer. However.

For 87K, SSL has made a real console. It feels good to touch. It's solid. The faders are awesome. And by the way, it's got 24 channels of EQ and some other fun stuff.

For more or less the same price (with a fader pack), Digi has made a cheap plastic controller. True, it is very big. The controller stuff is fairly well thought out, I'll give them that. But it feels like a toy. Since all your paying for is a TACTILE CONTROL SURFACE, why doesn't Digi start with making a product with real knobs (instead of the mushroom caps that are hard to turn), more than decent faders (fine, Icon's faders don't suck, but they aren't really great), and not those cheap plastic side panels. I mean, they claim to be competing with SSL. Have they have sat down in front of one? Really? You wouldn't think so.

We're supposed to pay 100 grand for this? Where is that money going? How much does this thing really cost to build? If we're forking over that much money, we should get a really really fine product. The Icon is no such product.

Oh, and by the way, I've seen 2 of them already and both of them have had a something busted on it. How many of these are they building? Can't they get it right?

[The Eggman]

Look, I'm no product designer. However.

For 87K, SSL has made a real console. It feels good to touch. It's solid. The faders are awesome. And by the way, it's got 24 channels of EQ and some other fun stuff.

For more or less the same price (with a fader pack), Digi has made a cheap plastic controller. True, it is very big. The controller stuff is fairly well thought out, I'll give them that. But it feels like a toy. Since all your paying for is a TACTILE CONTROL SURFACE, why doesn't Digi start with making a product with real knobs (instead of the mushroom caps that are hard to turn), more than decent faders (fine, Icon's faders don't suck, but they aren't really great), and not those cheap plastic side panels. I mean, they claim to be competing with SSL. Have they have sat down in front of one? Really? You wouldn't think so.

We're supposed to pay 100 grand for this? Where is that money going? How much does this thing really cost to build? If we're forking over that much money, we should get a really really fine product. The Icon is no such product.

Oh, and by the way, I've seen 2 of them already and both of them have had a something busted on it. How many of these are they building? Can't they get it right?

Uno,

yes, I totally agree that SSL makes absolutely first rate industrial products. Great, great stuff in terms of its design and build quality.

I have only seen the Icon at trade shows, and I'll have to have another look at it, because I came away from it thinking it was a really nicely built, very attractive work surface. You mentioned the "plastic", but what I mostly recall was the metal facia (at least of the faders). It just didn't seem plastic to my recollection. My ProControl...now THAT's plastic. I kind of thought that the mushroom knobs worked as planned by Digi because they allowed good visual contact with the LED's below when sitting in the sweet spot. I liked them.

In comparing the two products, SSL has been making products in the $500,000+ market for decades...all of their R&D has been integrated into the pricing of those products. Having done this over many years, they can now produce a nice junior version without much R&D work. With Digi, however, I'm pretty sure that quite a bit of R&D was involved in creating the Icon from scratch. After all, the thing had to be conceived and produced from the ground up...thus, the cost might be higher at this point than it may be in two-three years from now. I understand that. I don't think it's fair to ask the question "what does it cost them to make it and why can't it be cheaper" when you have, for instance, CD's which actually cost about $.25 to produce being sold in Best Buy for $12.99 or whatever. Actual production costs are always just a starting point to determine proper market price.

Anyway, thanks for your comments...I'm going to check the plastic the next time I see the thing!

[Wolfgang Eller]

I don't think it's fair to ask the question "what does it cost them to make it and why can't it be cheaper" when you have, for instance, CD's which actually cost about $.25 to produce being sold in Best Buy for $12.99 or whatever. Actual production costs are always just a starting point to determine proper market price.

You know that´s the worst comparison you could do.
But let´s compare it with a 70,000$ luxury car.
What do you think has more "value"?
And can you think about what you really could buy with that amount of money?

Cheers Wolfgang

[Henchman]

In comparing the two products, SSL has been making products in the $500,000+ market for decades...all of their R&D has been integrated into the pricing of those products. Having done this over many years, they can now produce a nice junior version without much R&D work. With Digi, however, I'm pretty sure that quite a bit of R&D was involved in creating the Icon from scratch. After all, the thing had to be conceived and produced from the ground up...thus, the cost might be higher at this point than it may be in two-three years from now.

So, what you're saying is that you don't mind paying alot of money for something that, quality wise, doesn't justify the price tag.

I don't get that kind of rationalising.

[The Eggman]

But let´s compare it with a 70,000$ luxury car.
What do you think has more "value"?
And can you think about what you really could buy with that amount of money?

Cheers Wolfgang

Wolfgang,

Flip the coin over. Let's look at that $70,000.00 luxury car...the world-respected German engineering, nearly fully hand crafted with finely tuned high performance engine, built to such a degree that all moving parts may travel 100,000km before any major fault, supple leather seats, full stereo and onboard navigation system, integrated climate control facilities, airbag technology, crash-zone frame able to protect a driver in a FULL HEAD-ON COLLISION, tricked out transmission, etc, etc. Surely a great product at $70K.

Now, for a TRULY insane comparison, do we really think that an SSL J or K console should price out at an astounding EIGHT-TEN TIMES THE COST of that luxury BMW/Mercedes?

Sorry, Wolf, but if the luxury car/Icon comparison seems suspect, the luxury car/SSL comparison seems absolutely ridiculous!

[The Eggman]

So, what you're saying is that you don't mind paying alot of money for something that, quality wise, doesn't justify the price tag.

I don't get that kind of rationalising.

Henchman,

Early adopters of most technologies help to pay for the R&D of said technology. Take flat screen computer monitors. When first introduced, they might have cost 5x the equivalent CRT monitor. Most people felt that they'd wait until the prices came down, and for most of them, that was a good decision. Then you had the relatively few people who were taken by the physical look of the flat screens and/or needed them to solve space problems in their control room or whatever. They were happy to pay the relatively high "introduction" price of the first flat screens. They were happy, too.

The Icon represents Digi's first foray into a large frame, fully featured control surface for PT. To design anything like that product takes years of design, implementation and production time. You might come to a good conclusion about how the thing should be designed...you might make a prototype or two, get some engineers up on them, assess their likes and dislikes, go back to the drawing board for a second design phase, blah, blah, blah.

All I'm saying is that if you took an 80 channel Icon at $180,000.00 or thereabouts, added $2,500.00/channel for audio facilities, you'd end up at $380,000.00...still well below the cost of an SSL J or K. So the pricing doens't seem THAT far off.

[Henchman]

As I suspected.

10 Icons sold to SAE

[Wolfgang Eller]

Now, for a TRULY insane comparison, do we really think that an SSL J or K console should price out at an astounding EIGHT-TEN TIMES THE COST of that luxury BMW/Mercedes?

These cars are sold worldwide more than 10 times as a SSL desks. If you wants to get back your R&D costs it´s the price you have to ask for.

Sorry, Wolf, but if the luxury car/Icon comparison seems suspect, the luxury car/SSL comparison seems absolutely ridiculous!

If you take in account that the SSL is a "real" desk and has real "analog DSP" power just scale down a 72 channel SSL desk to 16 channels and compare it with the Icon.

If you are lucky it´s 2:1. That is absolutely ridiculous.
Or do you really think a plastic remote is worth half the price of a SSL mixing tank?

Cheers Wolfgang

[Shawn B]

I saw one of these in action. It was hilarious. The "engineer"/ digi rep. leaned into the center of this console as he stretched to reach a knob and the thing sagged in the middle like it was going to snap. This is absolutely the world's largest and most expensive mouse. (Albeit a very sexy mouse). But it is NOT an audio console. Audio cannot be captured by it and audio does not pass through it. It's a ruse. To compare it to an actual console that has preamps, eq, compression, analog summing, quality engineering, etc.. etc.. Is like comparing one of those clay cars the automotive industry makes for display purposes to one that actually has an engine and drives.

I don't think were going to be seeing any videos with the Police dancing on this thing. ( Even though I know Sting is using protools at home.)

[Blake A]

But it is NOT an audio console. Audio cannot be captured by it and audio does not pass through it. It's a ruse. To compare it to an actual console that has preamps, eq, compression, analog summing, quality engineering, etc.. etc.. Is like comparing one of those clay cars the automotive industry makes for display purposes to one that actually has an engine and drives.

So by your definition all large format digital consoles aren't really consoles because as far as I've seen, no audio passes through the surface of any of them, they all have an external box of DSP, external racks of converters and mic pres which are ordered ala cart like Icon- that includes the SSL Axiom / C200, the AMS DFC/MMC, the Euphonix System 5 and the Harrsion MPC / series 12. Or does it have to be analog with audio in the surface to qualify as a real console?

Why is this so diificult for so many posters here to understand - Icon has the same basic blocks as all of these consoles. Does it not qualify because it has a built in recorder/editor which can be controlled by a mouse ? D-control is the surface part, Icon is the whole console.

And since when was console weight a factor in how good a console is to mix on.

Client says..."Hey, Mr Studio owner, I'd like to book your big analog room for a fully automated 5.1 surround mix on tuesday"
Studio owner replies.."We'll its not really fully automated except of course for the faders and mutes, but hey its very very heavy, you can even sit on the palm rest"

click