Turning Off MMM Display Mode

[EddieJones]

Rus5

Like Jeff, I'm sorry you feel this way and want to help, but I'm also with him on thinking you are being a little unfair on Avid. Whilst not every feature is to everyone's liking or workflow, we have been churning them out consistently. The S6 development has been the same as any high-end console in that respect, if not more, it took ICON and System 5 over 10 years to get to where they were and I have worked on many consoles from Neve, SSL and Harrison to name a few that have development cycles spread over many years. The price of S6 is comparable to the ICON and less than the S5 and other manufacturers in this space on a number of faders basis, yet S6 is far more technologically advanced. For the same cost as Icons bar meters, you get hi-res waveforms, instead of 8 char displays, you get a touchscreen and OLEDs.

You say that nobody will want to get display modules for the Master Meters, yet we started receiving many orders for extra units even before the release. The Joystick Module is bought by over 65% of S6 customers and if you go by the amount of money spent, Atmos is a high percentage of sales. That said I have always tried to balance releases and add features that benefit everyone (like EQ/DYN Cycling in 3.7)

Anyway, it's pointless repeatedly going back and forth on this as it helps nobody. I've pretty much dedicated the past 8 years of my life to S6 and would love to do every feature right now but that's not how things work. Let's get that (large) list and see what's already scheduled, what is easily fixed and what we can't get to in the near future. I've always been honest with what we can and cant do.

Lets start with these:
"plugins still can't be loaded, basic overage indicators don't work"
Please describe them in detail with how to reproduce if necessary and we'll go from here.

Eddie

[rus5]

Originally Posted by EddieJones

Rus5

Like Jeff, I'm sorry you feel this way and want to help, but I'm also with him on thinking you are being a little unfair on Avid. Whilst not every feature is to everyone's liking or workflow, we have been churning them out consistently. The S6 development has been the same as any high-end console in that respect, if not more, it took ICON and System 5 over 10 years to get to where they were and I have worked on many consoles from Neve, SSL and Harrison to name a few that have development cycles spread over many years. The price of S6 is comparable to the ICON and less than the S5 and other manufacturers in this space on a number of faders basis, yet S6 is far more technologically advanced. For the same cost as Icons bar meters, you get hi-res waveforms, instead of 8 char displays, you get a touchscreen and OLEDs.

You say that nobody will want to get display modules for the Master Meters, yet we started receiving many orders for extra units even before the release. The Joystick Module is bought by over 65% of S6 customers and if you go by the amount of money spent, Atmos is a high percentage of sales. That said I have always tried to balance releases and add features that benefit everyone (like EQ/DYN Cycling in 3.7)

Anyway, it's pointless repeatedly going back and forth on this as it helps nobody. I've pretty much dedicated the past 8 years of my life to S6 and would love to do every feature right now but that's not how things work. Let's get that (large) list and see what's already scheduled, what is easily fixed and what we can't get to in the near future. I've always been honest with what we can and cant do.

Lets start with these:
"plugins still can't be loaded, basic overage indicators don't work"
Please describe them in detail with how to reproduce if necessary and we'll go from here.

Eddie

Hi Eddie, Thanks for the response as always. I wouldn't have guessed based on the posts in here and what my friends at retailers tell me that such a large percentage of S6 users have large boards and can afford space for the newer modules, work in ATMOS, etc. but if you say so, of course I believe you. And I agree that going back and forth is not useful but let me ask you and Jeff to keep in mind that however you may feel, the perspective I'm describing is absolutely not mine alone and represents a large group of users too. In fact it's nearly the only perspective I ever hear.

Also (I just have to say this) I know a little about what guys like you and Jeff have had to deal with at Avid for the last many years and given that, let me say that I for one think you're doing an amazing job given the constraints you're under (the s/w engineers and Gil too). None of this is personal to you - actually, very much the opposite. Thank you for your eight years on the S6.

Ok so as for the issues I mentioned, I've described them many times on the DUC over the years and so have many others but let me expand a bit per your request:

-The "Attention Knob" section of the board has been dark from launch. It doesn't do anything. The S6 is made by Avid, and Avid's DAW is ProTools. ProTools should have been the FIRST DAW Avid chose to implement this feature for. It's of no help to Avid's own DAW customers like me if this feature works on other DAWS (until we finally give up on the -9XXX error issues in ProTools and ABANDON ProTools forever - but that's a different story). I for one am constantly running across situations where I could sure use this if it were active. I'm no Ross Hogarth and I don't have the experience guys like you do but I have NEVER purchased ANYTHING - especially something so expensive - where a major basic design function is simply non-functional. Let alone stays that way for years. I'm sorry but I find that astonishing - eighty thousand dollars later.
- I can't think of a not-clumsy way to say this so bear with me: the "over" indicators on the master module and display module meters simply don't work. By "over" indicators I mean the red/yellow LEDs at the top of the meters that light when the signal "goes over". They light in the ProTools mixer window but not on the board. I would go so far as to say, being able to easily identify "overs" during record is almost the most important thing the board should do during recording and they have never worked (or only very very intermittently). It's easy to see this - it lights up on the PT screen (small and hard to see) but doesn't on the board where it would be easier to see. Interestingly, the "Clear Clip" light on the MM ALWAYS lights when there's an over. The signal is getting to the S6...
- The idea of a DAW control surface is to not have to mouse around the DAW interface. One of the basic things one does is instantiate and de-instantiae plugins. To do this now, you have to go to the mouse and screen. If it were me, I'd activate the "Menu" button for this (move it's "Spill" functionality to "Attention-Menu"). Hit Menu, a list of Plugs shows up on the MM display just like the list that shows up in PT. You touch-select the folder/plugin you want to open, hit the "Insert" button on S6 for the channel track you want the plugin instantiated to, and it pops in there. Something similar for de-instantiate. Seems like a basic function that the S6 should have had at launch. I've seen many users request it over the years on the DUC.
- Another pretty basic thing is the EQ and DYN graphs on the MM display don't have numeric scales along their axes. You have to look at the PT display to see "how many dB's, what Freq are we at" etc. Isn't it obvious that graphs have to have scales on their X-Y axes?
- I have to disagree with you that being able to toggle the new multi track display on the display module on and off wouldn't be useful. In my case (two display modules) it would be useful to be able to switch between the 16 tracks I can always see, and 8 core tracks on one module and up to 32 tracks on the other from time to time. After all, while I wouldn't have put it at the top of MY list, the hard work for this has already been done. It would be added to the list of display mode possibilities that can be cycled through from the MM or on the track itself if configured (effecting the display for all 8 faders tracks in its group if selected from a track of course). I actually couldn't use either the knob or fader expand features without the toggle switches that were finally added to the soft keys (one of very few extremely useful features that WAS added recently). I could not afford to give up that real estate permanently. I'll bet that's true for a lot of other small surface users like me.

If Avid could just address those very basic things alone it would be a lot of progress. But people with more knowledge than me are always commenting on features the System 5 & ICON (that the S6 is supposedly a vast improvement over and has replaced for the future) have that the S6 doesn't that would be very useful - more advanced "Flip" functionality is one that pops into mind - there are many others in these pages (a long list). Your comments about the reasonableness of the S6's cost aside (MANY people VERY strongly disagree with that by the way Eddie - it's not as simple as a direct $$ comparison - a lot of time has gone by since they were developed - there have been MASSIVE technological advancements that the whole industry is leveraging to provide "much more" for "much less" in most areas of music related technology), at this price point it seems reasonable to expect nearly all of this stuff, especially by now.

Thanks for considering this.

[EddieJones]

Originally Posted by rus5

-The "Attention Knob" section of the board has been dark from launch. It doesn't do anything. The S6 is made by Avid, and Avid's DAW is ProTools. ProTools should have been the FIRST DAW Avid chose to implement this feature for. It's of no help to Avid's own DAW customers like me if this feature works on other DAWS (until we finally give up on the -9XXX error issues in ProTools and ABANDON ProTools forever - but that's a different story). I for one am constantly running across situations where I could sure use this if it were active. I'm no Ross Hogarth and I don't have the experience guys like you do but I have NEVER purchased ANYTHING - especially something so expensive - where a major basic design function is simply non-functional. Let alone stays that way for years. I'm sorry but I find that astonishing - eighty thousand dollars later.

Unfortunately this has to do with history and resource allocation. History is that EUCON supported the Assignable knob way before Avid and it was a relatively easy thing to implement in Nuendo and Logic. I had to make the decision knowing it was hard for PT to do this. We could have just not put it on and nobody would have said anything, but I wanted it so that if and when we did it in PT it was available. To do this in PT is massive and there have been many things that are higher priority (like those 9xx errors which are being worked on) but I think its better the knob is there so when we do get around to it we have something good.
Having designed a few consoles I always put extra controls on even if i have no idea at the time what they will be used for, this way its easier to add features down the road.

Originally Posted by rus5

- I can't think of a not-clumsy way to say this so bear with me: the "over" indicators on the master module and display module meters simply don't work. By "over" indicators I mean the red/yellow LEDs at the top of the meters that light when the signal "goes over". They light in the ProTools mixer window but not on the board. I would go so far as to say, being able to easily identify "overs" during record is almost the most important thing the board should do during recording and they have never worked (or only very very intermittently). It's easy to see this - it lights up on the PT screen (small and hard to see) but doesn't on the board where it would be easier to see. Interestingly, the "Clear Clip" light on the MM ALWAYS lights when there's an over. The signal is getting to the S6...

The (true/red) clip indicators are working for me and my QA guy too so not sure why yours aren't ? The yellow indicators (meaning the meter has gone higher than the display, not actually clipping) are not displayed on S6. This was my decision as I think it is far more useful to see when audio is clipping and not have those yellow lights flashing all the time indicating nothing. True the clear clip key does show when the yellow ones are on and I think that's wrong.

Originally Posted by rus5

- The idea of a DAW control surface is to not have to mouse around the DAW interface. One of the basic things one does is instantiate and de-instantiae plugins. To do this now, you have to go to the mouse and screen. If it were me, I'd activate the "Menu" button for this (move it's "Spill" functionality to "Attention-Menu"). Hit Menu, a list of Plugs shows up on the MM display just like the list that shows up in PT. You touch-select the folder/plugin you want to open, hit the "Insert" button on S6 for the channel track you want the plugin instantiated to, and it pops in there. Something similar for de-instantiate. Seems like a basic function that the S6 should have had at launch. I've seen many users request it over the years on the DUC.

We are currently working on this, for next year

Originally Posted by rus5

- Another pretty basic thing is the EQ and DYN graphs on the MM display don't have numeric scales along their axes. You have to look at the PT display to see "how many dB's, what Freq are we at" etc. Isn't it obvious that graphs have to have scales on their X-Y axes?

Technically as EUCON supports many DAWs and different plugins, its not as easy to do this as it may seem, not impossible but quite a big job. As a mixer myself I dont totally agree in how much of a loss this is, as the knobs right next to them show the values and I really dont use those either. With that said I do want to make these graphs better including color coding too.

Originally Posted by rus5

Your comments about the reasonableness of the S6's cost aside (MANY people VERY strongly disagree with that by the way Eddie - it's not as simple as a direct $$ comparison - a lot of time has gone by since they were developed - there have been MASSIVE technological advancements that the whole industry is leveraging to provide "much more" for "much less" in most areas of music related technology), at this price point it seems reasonable to expect nearly all of this stuff, especially by now.
.

You are very very wrong in this statement. Just look at a display module on S6 compared to an Icons bar graphs, The Master Module with on board computer and touch screen, the Softkeys with multiple TFT's. More power to drive these, more cables, cpu in each module and network switch for the modularity. There have been a lot of technological improvements true but the cost has gone up not down. Just look at the new iPhone for instance for a perfect comparison.

[rus5]

Originally Posted by EddieJones

Unfortunately this has to do with history and resource allocation. History is that EUCON supported the Assignable knob way before Avid and it was a relatively easy thing to implement in Nuendo and Logic. I had to make the decision knowing it was hard for PT to do this. We could have just not put it on and nobody would have said anything, but I wanted it so that if and when we did it in PT it was available. To do this in PT is massive and there have been many things that are higher priority (like those 9xx errors which are being worked on) but I think its better the knob is there so when we do get around to it we have something good.
Having designed a few consoles I always put extra controls on even if i have no idea at the time what they will be used for, this way its easier to add features down the road.

The (true/red) clip indicators are working for me and my QA guy too so not sure why yours aren't ? The yellow indicators (meaning the meter has gone higher than the display, not actually clipping) are not displayed on S6. This was my decision as I think it is far more useful to see when audio is clipping and not have those yellow lights flashing all the time indicating nothing. True the clear clip key does show when the yellow ones are on and I think that's wrong.

We are currently working on this, for next year

Technically as EUCON supports many DAWs and different plugins, its not as easy to do this as it may seem, not impossible but quite a big job. As a mixer myself I dont totally agree in how much of a loss this is, as the knobs right next to them show the values and I really dont use those either. With that said I do want to make these graphs better including color coding too.

You are very very wrong in this statement. Just look at a display module on S6 compared to an Icons bar graphs, The Master Module with on board computer and touch screen, the Softkeys with multiple TFT's. More power to drive these, more cables, cpu in each module and network switch for the modularity. There have been a lot of technological improvements true but the cost has gone up not down. Just look at the new iPhone for instance for a perfect comparison.

Thanks for the response as always Eddie. Well, I guess that's it on me, huh? And a lot of other folks too. It's what I expected. It looks to me like it all boils down to that you and your team are working very hard and doing an amazing job within severely limited constraints. What I mean is, due to unbelievably bad executive level management Avid's stock has been plummeting for years and is currently at about its lowest ever ($4.35) while the rest of the music production industry has been soaring. This all started with me responding to Jeff's kindly worded "challenge" to my little comment that the rate of S6 s/w development is declining. When I said that I was thinking that it seems like it's tied to Avid's financial performance which is probably directly correlated to the money Hernandez is willing to make available for things like S6 s/w development. Given what that must be, you guys are surely doing an incredible job. But you can't snap your fingers and make s/w appear and I believe that's what all of this boils down to.

But I want to say this just one more time. What I'm saying isn't just me and my little inexperienced opinion. For example, I work with a very large music production retailer/ "everything" company. They started off being enthusiastic about the S6 but have basically lost interest at this point. I was talking to their "head console guy" the end of last week about something completely unrelated (problems with my Trinnov DMON) and he flat out said the S6 just isn't competitive (and some other things). He just volunteered it - I didn't ask - I was actually the relatively positive one in the conversation sort of defending it. Last year at NAMM, same thing for the most part. I know there's an opposite point of view. You've been expressing it and apparently even big money guys are still buying it which is awesome and encouraging. But they're not all of us. Maybe not most of us.

I feel like this is ending up sounding like I'm ragging on you guys personally and I'm really not so I'm just going to shut up now. I was just defending my statement. And I'm asking to whatever extent its possible within your constraints, there are some S6 customers out here that would appreciate the balance to tilt back a little to features compatible with smaller systems doing core stereo music production.

(PS just gotta respond to this one thing - the iPhone is STAGGERINGLY more sophisticated now than it was when the ICON and System 5 were being sold - much of it software - and only a little more expensive relatively, especially the iPhone 8. It does every single thing the early iPhone did (not so with the S6) and massively, hugely more. If the S6 was to the ICON and System 5 what the current iPhone is compared to one during the ICON/ System 5 era, Avid could charge TWICE as much and it would still be cheap at the price).

[EddieJones]

All I have to say.......headphone jack.....touch ID......home button ;-)

[rus5]

Originally Posted by EddieJones

Sorry I have to ask...what did your guy think was more competitive than S6?

He didn't say specifically. It was an uncomfortable moment in the conversation because he's talking to a guy who has invested a huge amount of money in one so he sort of got off the subject when I started defending it. Like he forgot who he was talking to. He didn't make a one-to-one comparison with anything and frankly, sitting on nearly $80,000 spent so far with little resale value, I wouldn't even want to know. His point was along the lines of - for customers who can afford something as expensive as an S6, I could set them up far better. He also made a comment that buying an S6 means dealing with Avid and that all by itself is asking for big trouble. He moved right to talking about how he worked his way up to being something of a Pro Tools expert around version 10 then completely abandon it (for Logic I think?) because he hated and didn't trust Avid (a point of view he knows I'm very sympathetic to). Along these lines, I upgraded my speakers about a year ago and visited this company's office in another state to pick them out. The folks there - totally different people - had exactly the same opinion. They had a dirty, unused S6 unconnected sitting in the corner with stuff stacked on it while other consoles were connected up and on display around the store. I'm not just inventing this point of view to be obstinate Eddie - it's been more conspicuous around me as time's gone on. When I saw this last software update, it rang this bell pretty hard. Even if we're all raging idiots, there are a lot of us raging idiots.

[rus5]

Originally Posted by EddieJones

All I have to say.......headphone jack.....touch ID......home button ;-)

HAH!!! The eternal argument ... you sound like an Android guy?? Tomatoes TAMATOES (...and like I said, most of it s/w!)

[EddieJones]

Worse...Windows Phone ...but I think the new iPhone has finally got some of the features from that now....hehe

Anyway, I'm sorry you guys aren't happy with S6 as much as others are, luckily I meet many happy S6 customers and we have seen the highest sales since launch this year.

I want to turn you around so please keep posting bugs and feature requests. It's better to post each in a separate thread though for clarity.

Maybe you would want to become a beta tester?

[EddieJones]

Oh and its Tomarrrtoes...I'm English!

[rus5]

Originally Posted by EddieJones

Oh and its Tomarrrtoes...I'm English!

English huh?? I KNEW I liked you right off...

Well, you don't have to turn me around per se - I ARGUED (a little) with the guy from my retailer. I like my S6. All it would take for me to be happy is if it did the things it should do and everything worked properly on it. But it doesn't. And my inexperience works both ways. I can see from what experienced people are saying that I don't know enough to know all it SHOULD be doing at this price point. That said, I am DELIGHTED to hear you guys had your best year yet. That's absolutely outstanding Eddie - congratulations! Avid is very lucky to have you guys and I hope to hell they know it (they're obviously not too bright...).

You asked me a while ago if I wanted to be a beta tester, I think before I retired when I didn't own my time, and I said I'd get back to you and now I'd like to take you up on your kind offer. Please let me know what to do (I've already got an NDA with Avid if that helps). Thank you very much for the offer! And thanks again for the responses.