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  #1  
Old 07-15-2002, 08:12 PM
froyo froyo is offline
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Default video/ audio capture

Is there anybody out there recording production audio (film/video) directly to Pro Tools (or any other daw software for that matter) along with a video capture card? Some friends and I were discussing this the other day and I, amongst others, was of the opinion that you could bypass some time consuming hurdles in film production by going directly to disk to both the video and audio platform/software combo to be used later for editing.

In other words, instead of recording to Nagras, Zaxcom Devas, Dats, etc and then making a tranfer to Pro Tools (or whatever software is used), get a video to synch to picture to and then go on to post production, get a Titanium powerbook or Sony VAIO, a portable interface (896, Mini-me, PRE), AV Option (or other video capture card system whther it's Avid, Final Cut compatible) and record video to Avid or Final Cut and audio directly to Pro Tools. This has the added advantage of having instant dailies, no telecine.

Post production audio and video elements are captured at the time of filming. After production wraps up, audio engineers will work on these audio sessions, skipping the transfer part. On the video side you also skip the transfer to video process. Granted it's not cheap, but then again neither are high end Nagras, Devas, Dats plus you have to consider the time and expense of audio transfers and telecine.

Theoretically under this scenario also, if the audio engineer wants it, he can get a video capture also, although this is a daily at best and not an edited scene; the video guys can also get audio if they so choose for synching purposes, etc.

The minute production wraps up, post can start. As a matter of fact, post can start after every day of filming if the powers that be want it. Send drives out on their way to audio and video houses to start the process immediately. Most of the objections that were thrown my way were similar to those you heard some years ago (and I suppose you still do sometimes) from high end engineers about digital audio as opposed to 2". Pro Tools (or Nuendo, Logic, DP, etc) doesn't compare to Nagra/Deva, etc; computers crash; production, specially location audio/video capture is too problematic, logistically impossible. Mostly objections like that.

I maintain most of those objections can be overcome with careful planning and attention to detail. I also seem to think that the advantages would be huge. Humongous. A new way of doing things. Let's get real, 92% to 97% of audio for film (or video/TV) is done on DAW's (Pro Tools mostly) and video is also either edited on a NLE's (Avid, Final Cut). I would say maybe 100% on both fields. So why not skip the time and expense of transfers and capture audio and video directly to the software to be used for post production.

Alright. I was saying there are probably people out there already doing this. Prove me right. Your turn. Let me have it. My friends sure did the other day. Thank you.
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  #2  
Old 07-16-2002, 04:11 PM
sf sound sf sound is offline
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Default Re: video/ audio capture

AV Option & XL video does not work in an Avid. What about telecine transfer and pull up/down? No confidence monitoring in PT. There are reasons that things are done the way they are.
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  #3  
Old 07-16-2002, 07:28 PM
Richard Fairbanks Richard Fairbanks is offline
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Default Re: video/ audio capture

I wasn't going to respond but then I just couldn't hold myself back...

"things are done...for a reason" sounds a little like "things are done the way they are because they've always been done that way". The confidence monitoring thing is valid. With the high cost per minute of many shoots these days, and the low ranking of audio to begin with, the last thing we need are fatal data flaws in a disk subsystem. The best way to know for sure that audio has been recorded properly is to hear it played back. Also, I wouldn't ever consider using a DAW under those circumstances without some sort of independent backup as well. DAWs are generally pretty fragile.

As more work is shot digitally (you can't stop "progress" even if it is stepping away from quality), I have absolutely no doubt that DAW's will be used more and more. I know for a fact that laptops are being used already for this purpose in some low-budget productions. I also know that Pro Tools is being used as a primary recorder in some situations.

Yeah, proper planning is all it takes but don't forget that once you get on set things happen that can throw all that planning into turmoil, or demand so much attention that you forget to check one critical setting. The system has to be simple and solid. Currently, DAWs are neither. If it were my ars in the sling, I wouldn't trust one yet. But they are getting better.

I say a re-think once in a while never hurts. Just keep in mind that anything that might go wrong most certainly will sooner or later. Your new plans MUST take every possibility into account.
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  #4  
Old 07-17-2002, 05:34 AM
froyo froyo is offline
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Default Re: video/ audio capture

Yes the AV Option can be discarded. That one was only mentioned in case audio wants picture. Avid or Final Cut would be captured with their hardware requirements. As far as telecine, correct me if I'm wrong, but if the video editors have an uncompressed (or low compression) picture, why do you want telecine? Pull up or pull down is going to be done regardless of what you do when film is shot. As for monitoring, I agree that it may be a problem, but not one that can't be overcome with some planning and a good interface and a good set of headphones
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  #5  
Old 07-17-2002, 02:40 PM
RobMacki RobMacki is offline
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Default Re: video/ audio capture

Yes.
My set up is:
On Magliner Jr.:
MkH 416 >> Mackie 1202
Mackie >> PD4 & PT 5.1.3 d|24 w/2 dsp farms
USD master sync, Jam PD4, Transport=PT
Each take recored as seperate SDII audio file
to maintain TC stamp at head of files.
Pro Tools hardware:
4 slot Magma Expansion
G4ti
Lacie 7200 Firewire 60gig
888|24 calabrated to -14db 882|20

But now that 24p can capture audio into the camera...16bit 441 though

We must keep the faith not to let camera assistants become "audio experts" too
even everyone on the set knows location audio dosen't matter.

I would love to have a Deva for the portability and file xfer but why when I already have Pro Tools.

My set up works great as long as I have power near by....that is the down side.

My angle is:
If I can do the post, It makes all the sense in the world to record direct into Pro Tools and use a PD4 (rented) for Dat back up, portability and telecine xfer. Just for ref. audio.
I have shown the dirrector I work w/most that
the audio I captured into Pro Tools is PRISTINE compared to after it has made its way to his G4ti Final Cut and then back to me.

Long live Pro Tools!
Long live Location Mixers!
Long live Sound Designers!
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  #6  
Old 07-17-2002, 03:13 PM
sf sound sf sound is offline
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Default Re: video/ audio capture

Agreed. Progress can be made in this area. Picture capture though is another story. It can be done, but it requires a lot of extra equip. Getting timestamped video into an Avid while loading live is probably not too easy. I have not thought it all the way thru, but it's a great idea! As for the 24p camera, it's 48k 24 bit, not too shabby at all!
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  #7  
Old 07-18-2002, 05:25 PM
mazuroo mazuroo is offline
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Default Re: video/ audio capture

This is definitly the future; we have done it a couple of times. We have just completely jumped on the HD and all digital band-wagon (oh god i hope it pans out....) The solution is not direct to computer though, it is digital stand alone units. Computers are way to buggy, big, and slow.

There are things to keep in mind though, like money.....

1: What sort of video quality are you looking at?

DV - well you could capture real time, but it's DV....

Film quality and HD - perpare to shell out the uber bucks. There is a great new camera out there that records right to hard disc: The Viper (it will take all movie standard lenses), which costs about $75,000, mono audio though. Storing high qaulity video requires massive amounts of storage: 3 HOURS OF HD PER 1000 GIGS!!!!! (1 terrabyte=about $12,000)

We will be using the Viper rig (or similar) in the spring to do an HD climbing video.

You could get a really good 3 chip camera that ports directly to an uncompressed DoReMi VTR Deck

DoReMi: about 10 grand
Really Good 3 chip: about 40 grand

The DoReMi will capture 8 channels of Digital Audio as well.

Budget about 400 dollars for every 23 minutes of video captured (23 minutes of uncompressed onto a 36 gig drive-Seagate Cheetah)

I am all for a complete digital solution. The departments should be kept seperate though, have a seperate group doing sound, another doing video.
I dont want to take jobs away from my union brothers...

I am sure you could piece together something that works, duct tape kept my old van running: but something always goes wrong. If you want to do it, do it right. [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

Well, i have babbled on enough now.... [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

tim@modestudios.com
www.modestudios.com
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  #8  
Old 07-19-2002, 07:53 AM
froyo froyo is offline
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Default Re: video/ audio capture

With all due respect to the above post, the topic I started was to delve into the question of recording directly to the software to be used in post production editing and in that way to avoid transfers. What you proposed or did is no different that the other mediums becuase it still necesitates an audio and video transfer for editing. As for computers being big and bulky that's why I suggested laptops. My theory again is, if %95 to %100 of films get edited on Pro Tools and Avids and Final Cut, why not record to those software directly and avoid a transfer. There are hurdles to be overcome for sure, but again I think careful planning and attention to detail will solve that. I'm not a video guy, but does anyone know if Avid Express can record uncompressed or low compression video compatible with the Symphony, etc. If so, that can be a solution on the video side. A laptop and interface on the same rack as the mixer and other outboard gear could be a solution for audio.
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  #9  
Old 07-19-2002, 09:18 AM
mazuroo mazuroo is offline
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Default Re: video/ audio capture

Froyo,

Sorry i strayed above. My reason for doing do is that I believe that complete direct to computing solution is: 1 - a bad idea, and 2 - not able to b done yet.

The AVID Xpress will do uncompressed 601 footage, but i think it is mainly used to offline the edit, until you are ready to do a final compilation. Most of the AVID line is this way, they digitize a low res version of the footage, then when the edit is finished, it uses the EDL to compile a full rez product. Also, to record to an avid requires the use of special AVID hardware, which is not yet abble to fit or connect to a laptop.

We just bought an AVID DS/HD, and besides the Symphony, it is the only thing that can push pixels around in real time.

The amount of Hard drive space needed to capture an entire project would be phenominal. That is what the logging process is for, don't capture what you dont need. Tape (even digibeta or HDCam)is much cheaper than good SCSI HD's.

Why would you want to consolidate all of the departments? The more you combine things, the greater chance there is of absolute disaster. Computers are not made to be the only point in the production chain. I think it is very important to seperate the production and post-production worlds.

I really have no idea why i have taken such a personal shine to this thread, perhaps i needed to pontificate... Dont worry, i still love you all....

-tm [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
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  #10  
Old 07-19-2002, 10:49 PM
Boom Chic Boom Chic is offline
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Default Re: video/ audio capture

How do you take a Pro Tools setup on location? A Nagra or DAT is much more forgiving and reliable in extreme climates than a computer/monitor/keyboard/mouse/ noisy hard drives(tons of them). Audio uses up much less hard drive space than video, just think what kind of setup you'd have to have to store all the raw full res. video? This setup seems like it's still far away. Some day, it will probably be feasable,and might work in a fixed, controlled environment.

Seems like if you want to have everything first generation, shoot digital video, and record the audio into the camera. How's that for effeciency?
Digitize into your Avid the footage you want to use, and, there you go.
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