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  #161  
Old 10-19-2016, 09:59 AM
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Shan Shan is offline
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Default Re: Fine breakpoint adjustment change in 12.6 = Showstopper

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOM@METRO View Post
Being on Windows, and being a regular MIDI user, I feel that unless this can spend a great deal of time in beta to route out potential bugs and MIDI workflow busters, going back to 100% legacy is the safest game for now.
Hopefully they have an equal amount of very advanced MIDI testers, per their Post testers, that can hash through it in great detail.

Shane
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  #162  
Old 10-19-2016, 01:47 PM
jscomposer jscomposer is offline
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Default Re: Fine breakpoint adjustment change in 12.6 = Showstopper

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOM@METRO View Post
Being on Windows, and being a regular MIDI user, I feel that unless this can spend a great deal of time in beta to route out potential bugs and workflow busters, going back to 100% legacy is the safest game for now.

Perhaps ideas for change should begin with the "IdeaScale" where more in depth discussion can take place over an extended period of time.
Should I revise my bug report or start a new "idea?"

Before I do either, question for everyone:

Was horizontal-only breakpoint movement with the smart tool ever doable? If so, in which version(s), and how? If not, why should it be impossible?
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  #163  
Old 10-24-2016, 02:10 PM
Kyle Splittgerber's Avatar
Kyle Splittgerber Kyle Splittgerber is offline
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Default Re: Fine breakpoint adjustment change in 12.6 = Showstopper

Quote:
Originally Posted by jscomposer View Post
HELL NO.

Any "benefit" that cripples some other time-honored function should be a non-starter. If you insist on reverting, just revert. Don't mess with it. If someone wants unrestricted fine adjustment in grid mode, they can hit command-option-shift just like before. (Were you aware of that?)

Again, I think you were on the right track with 12.6, and much of this thread was overreaction and ignorance. Even you didn't realize that fine adjustment in all directions was still possible. You just need to put more thought into it and work out the bugs and unintended consequences.

The paradigm, or goal, should be the elimination of grid and slip modes as we know it. Suppressing or snapping to grid at will should be seamless. Why don't you make use of the caps lock key? Slip = caps lock off. Grid = caps lock on.
No, I wasn't aware of Shift+Option+Command allowing unconstrained, fine breakpoint adjustment. Were you aware of this before guitardom mentioned it here?

But, this is a very odd command that seems completely accidental. Shift+Option and Command+Option constrain to horizontal movement. So, I’d expect Shift+Option+Command to constrain to horizontal as well since it’s a combination of both commands. In fact, you'll see horizontal constrain behavior with automation breakpoints if you hold the keys before clicking the mouse. And, with Clip Gain it only does horizontal constrain regardless of whether keys are pressed before or after mouse click. So, if this command was intentional, it was only half implemented. Implying that we don't know which commands do what in our documentation is unfair in my opinion. This was not messaged because I wouldn't qualify this as an intended shortcut.

That being said, it's useful and we're planning to resolve these inconsistencies I mentioned above.

Regarding my question and your objection to whether or not Command (Control) should both suppress grid AND do fine breakpoint adjustment, I want to mention something else for everyone to consider. This is actually how Clip Gain behaves today, which is different from automation breakpoint adjustment. This makes no sense to me that these should not be consistent. So, here is my question:

Do you like when Command (Control) suppresses grid and enables fine adjustment for Clip Gain? If so, then why don't you want this behavior for automation breakpoints?

Also, when I say automation breakpoints that includes MIDI breakpoint behavior too. It should all behave consistently.

Last, how is using Caps Lock better than F2/F4? Seems like having Caps Lock enabled, and forgetting about it, would get annoying when switching to any text entry field whether in PT or not.
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  #164  
Old 10-25-2016, 01:00 AM
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Matt Hepworth Matt Hepworth is offline
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Default Fine breakpoint adjustment change in 12.6 = Showstopper

There are lots of confusing shortcuts mentioned in this thread.

Until 12.6 it was as simple as this :

With Smart Tool active, and regardless of grid selection state (grid, slip, etc.), holding Cmd ALWAYS allowed an automation node to be created exactly at the spot of the cursor/pointer AND allowed for fine adjustment (horizontal or vertical). It was correct and working extremely well for YEARS. We would automatically just hold Cmd for every single node/breakpoint, because it made it so simple.

Put it back!

As a side note of the screw up (uh, I mean *feature*) slip mode also no longer slips when Cmd is held. It now forces to grid. Ridiculous changes.

Cmd worked so well everywhere before.
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  #165  
Old 10-25-2016, 08:19 AM
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TOM@METRO TOM@METRO is offline
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Default Re: Fine breakpoint adjustment change in 12.6 = Showstopper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Hepworth View Post
There are lots of confusing shortcuts mentioned in this thread.

Until 12.6 it was as simple as this :

With Smart Tool active, and regardless of grid selection state (grid, slip, etc.), holding Cmd ALWAYS allowed an automation node to be created exactly at the spot of the cursor/pointer AND allowed for fine adjustment (horizontal or vertical). It was correct and working extremely well for YEARS. We would automatically just hold Cmd for every single node/breakpoint, because it made it so simple.

Put it back!

As a side note of the screw up (uh, I mean *feature*) slip mode also no longer slips when Cmd is held. It now forces to grid. Ridiculous changes.

Cmd worked so well everywhere before.
At this point, I fully agree. Put it back.
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Pro Tools Ultimate 2019.6 HDX
HD Omni and 192 I/Os
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  #166  
Old 10-25-2016, 11:27 AM
jscomposer jscomposer is offline
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Default Re: Fine breakpoint adjustment change in 12.6 = Showstopper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Splittgerber View Post
No, I wasn't aware of Shift+Option+Command allowing unconstrained, fine breakpoint adjustment. Were you aware of this before guitardom mentioned it here?

But, this is a very odd command that seems completely accidental. Shift+Option and Command+Option constrain to horizontal movement. So, I’d expect Shift+Option+Command to constrain to horizontal as well since it’s a combination of both commands. In fact, you'll see horizontal constrain behavior with automation breakpoints if you hold the keys before clicking the mouse. And, with Clip Gain it only does horizontal constrain regardless of whether keys are pressed before or after mouse click. So, if this command was intentional, it was only half implemented. Implying that we don't know which commands do what in our documentation is unfair in my opinion. This was not messaged because I wouldn't qualify this as an intended shortcut.

That being said, it's useful and we're planning to resolve these inconsistencies I mentioned above.

Regarding my question and your objection to whether or not Command (Control) should both suppress grid AND do fine breakpoint adjustment, I want to mention something else for everyone to consider. This is actually how Clip Gain behaves today, which is different from automation breakpoint adjustment. This makes no sense to me that these should not be consistent. So, here is my question:

Do you like when Command (Control) suppresses grid and enables fine adjustment for Clip Gain? If so, then why don't you want this behavior for automation breakpoints?

Also, when I say automation breakpoints that includes MIDI breakpoint behavior too. It should all behave consistently.

Last, how is using Caps Lock better than F2/F4? Seems like having Caps Lock enabled, and forgetting about it, would get annoying when switching to any text entry field whether in PT or not.
Horizontal-only automation breakpoint movement with the smart tool is broken in 12.6, AND in 12.5.2 and 12.4. Were you aware of that? Unless it's supposed to be that way. Curiously, it works properly on the clip gain line. So I'd ask those who've taken a hardline position on reversion: how far back does Avid need to go for horizontal-only automation breakpoint adjustment to work?

Btw, I disagree that shift-option-command logically = horizontal only, because shift=vertical only. At least most of the time. lol If command-option = horizontal and command-shift = vertical, then to me it makes sense that command-shift-option = vertical & horizontal, i.e., unrestricted. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The real question is, why do you have redundant mod key combos, especially when you're trying to add features?

I can't answer your question because it's not that simple. The one thing that's clear is you can't focus on 1 mod key/behavior without considering how it affects other mod keys/behaviors. "100% reversion" is a temporary fix, not the ultimate answer, because even previous versions have flawed, inconsistent behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Hepworth View Post
There are lots of confusing shortcuts mentioned in this thread.

Until 12.6 it was as simple as this :

With Smart Tool active, and regardless of grid selection state (grid, slip, etc.), holding Cmd ALWAYS allowed an automation node to be created exactly at the spot of the cursor/pointer AND allowed for fine adjustment (horizontal or vertical). It was correct and working extremely well for YEARS. We would automatically just hold Cmd for every single node/breakpoint, because it made it so simple.

Put it back!

As a side note of the screw up (uh, I mean *feature*) slip mode also no longer slips when Cmd is held. It now forces to grid. Ridiculous changes.

Cmd worked so well everywhere before.
shift-command does what you want.
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  #167  
Old 10-25-2016, 04:18 PM
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Shan Shan is offline
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Default Re: Fine breakpoint adjustment change in 12.6 = Showstopper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Splittgerber View Post
Do you like when Command (Control) suppresses grid and enables fine adjustment for Clip Gain? If so, then why don't you want this behavior for automation breakpoints?

Also, when I say automation breakpoints that includes MIDI breakpoint behavior too. It should all behave consistently.
Thanks for the continued dialogue on this topic Kyle. It's greatly appreciated.

Indeed, in an ideal DAWorld, it would be very practical for this to be consistent. Unfortunately, tackling this type of consistency this late in the Pro Tools development cycle will be very problematic in areas. There are many other inconsistencies throughout PT similar to this one. Some of these that changed behavior were even let out the door in PT 8, in which these very same discussions occurred identical to what we're having now.

Adding new key commands to new features not found in older PT versions is one thing, but adding new key commands that completely change editing behavior and impact workflow will become very problematic to the many of us who freelance and work out of multiple facilities. Not every facility out there is on 12.6. You'll find many Post and Music facilities still on PT 9-11. Some facilities even use multiple versions. I myself had a job a few weeks back where I was editing on a PT 10 workstation, while my colleague was editing on PT 12.6 in the control room. When muscle memory kicks in on 12.6 with the new behavior, then you move to a PT 10/11 workstation, things then become inconsistent with editing behavior and likely frustrating in that very common use case scenario.

With the many use case scenarios put forth so far, my vote is to restore the original behavior for now. If Avid is determined to make this work, there will be other use case scenarios to consider when using some of the combined editing modes such as:
  • Enable Snap to Grid and Slip mode > F2+F4
  • Enable Snap To Grid while in another Edit mode > Shfit+F4

Instead of tackling this as a momentary switch, how about perhaps having a look at just making it a regular toggle? I can only speak from my own experience, but an easily accessible Slip/Grid toggle command is easier to use and far more user friendly than a multi fingered modifier Slip/Grid momentary command when editing. There's also the advantage of knowing what mode you're in via the Slip/Grid UI buttons in the main toolbar and via the UI grid color in the edit window.

If a user absolutely wants a Slip/Grid toggle(or momentary) command, it's easily done for now using QuicKeys/AutoHotKey/AppleScript etc. There's also the advantage of it working in PT 5.0.1-12.6, using the key/mouse button of one's choice, and knowing what mode you're in via the Slip/Grid UI buttons and via the actual UI grid color in the edit window. For those on the Windows platform, grab AHK(free) and use the following script for a Slip/Grid toggle assigned to the key/mouse button of your choice:

Code:
#IfWinActive ahk_class DigiAppWndClass

;Slip Grid Toggle Action

Button2::
toggle := !toggle
    
if (toggle) {
    SendInput {F2}
} else {
    SendInput {F4}
}
return
"Button2" above can be any key, mouse button, or key command combination of your choice. Just make the change. Making this script a momentary command instead of it's current toggle command is also easily done. If anyone opts for that version, just let me know.


Thanks for chiming back in again Kyle and reaching out to the community here for feedback. Hopefully this dialogue will stir up some ideas for you folks at HQ and you'll come up with a great solution, which we know you'll do!

Shane
__________________
Pro Tools Power User Editing

Give your plug-ins a facelift...and skin 'em!
__________________

"Music should be performed by the musician, not by the engineer."

Michael Wagener 25th July 2005, 02:59 PM

__________________

Pro Tools|HD Native 9.0.1 | Pro Tools|HDX 10.2 | Studio One | REAPER 4.22 | HD OMNI | HoboMac Pro 2.26Ghz Quad-Core | W7 Ultimate 64-bit
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  #168  
Old 10-25-2016, 06:42 PM
bolooki bolooki is offline
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Default Re: Fine breakpoint adjustment change in 12.6 = Showstopper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Hepworth View Post
As a side note of the screw up (uh, I mean *feature*) slip mode also no longer slips when Cmd is held. It now forces to grid. Ridiculous changes.

Cmd worked so well everywhere before.
Agree- just upgraded from 10 and this cmd=temporary grid while in Slip is driving me nuts.

i get why that behavior would exist in Slip+Grid mode, but if i have it in slip i want it in slip no matter what modifier i hit.

plz change or make it an option to revert!
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  #169  
Old 10-25-2016, 08:13 PM
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TOM@METRO TOM@METRO is offline
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Default Re: Fine breakpoint adjustment change in 12.6 = Showstopper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan View Post
Thanks for the continued dialogue on this topic Kyle. It's greatly appreciated.

Indeed, in an ideal DAWorld, it would be very practical for this to be consistent. Unfortunately, tackling this type of consistency this late in the Pro Tools development cycle will be very problematic in areas. There are many other inconsistencies throughout PT similar to this one. Some of these that changed behavior were even let out the door in PT 8, in which these very same discussions occurred identical to what we're having now.

Adding new key commands to new features not found in older PT versions is one thing, but adding new key commands that completely change editing behavior and impact workflow will become very problematic to the many of us who freelance and work out of multiple facilities. Not every facility out there is on 12.6. You'll find many Post and Music facilities still on PT 9-11. Some facilities even use multiple versions. I myself had a job a few weeks back where I was editing on a PT 10 workstation, while my colleague was editing on PT 12.6 in the control room. When muscle memory kicks in on 12.6 with the new behavior, then you move to a PT 10/11 workstation, things then become inconsistent with editing behavior and likely frustrating in that very common use case scenario.

With the many use case scenarios put forth so far, my vote is to restore the original behavior for now. If Avid is determined to make this work, there will be other use case scenarios to consider when using some of the combined editing modes such as:
  • Enable Snap to Grid and Slip mode > F2+F4
  • Enable Snap To Grid while in another Edit mode > Shfit+F4

Instead of tackling this as a momentary switch, how about perhaps having a look at just making it a regular toggle? I can only speak from my own experience, but an easily accessible Slip/Grid toggle command is easier to use and far more user friendly than a multi fingered modifier Slip/Grid momentary command when editing. There's also the advantage of knowing what mode you're in via the Slip/Grid UI buttons in the main toolbar and via the UI grid color in the edit window.

If a user absolutely wants a Slip/Grid toggle(or momentary) command, it's easily done for now using QuicKeys/AutoHotKey/AppleScript etc. There's also the advantage of it working in PT 5.0.1-12.6, using the key/mouse button of one's choice, and knowing what mode you're in via the Slip/Grid UI buttons and via the actual UI grid color in the edit window. For those on the Windows platform, grab AHK(free) and use the following script for a Slip/Grid toggle assigned to the key/mouse button of your choice:

Code:
#IfWinActive ahk_class DigiAppWndClass

;Slip Grid Toggle Action

Button2::
toggle := !toggle
    
if (toggle) {
    SendInput {F2}
} else {
    SendInput {F4}
}
return
"Button2" above can be any key, mouse button, or key command combination of your choice. Just make the change. Making this script a momentary command instead of it's current toggle command is easily done. If anyone opts for that version, just let me know.


Thanks for chiming back in again Kyle and reaching out to the community here for feedback. Hopefully this dialogue will stir up some ideas for you folks at HQ and you'll come up with a great solution, which we know you'll do!

Shane
Great post Shane.
__________________
~ tom thomas

Formerly hobotom

Pro Tools Ultimate 2019.6 HDX
HD Omni and 192 I/Os
Windows 10
Intel Hexcore i7
All Samsung Pro SSDs
Ampex MM1200 2" 24 trk tape
Outboard: UREI, Eventide, Lexicon, Yamaha, TC Electronics, Orban, ART, EchoAudio, Dolby, Hughes, API, Neve, Audio Arts, BBE, Aphex, Berringer, MOTU, dbx, Allison, etc.
Plug-ins: Too many to talk about.

www.metrostudios.com
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  #170  
Old 10-26-2016, 12:47 AM
Mark Ziebarth Mark Ziebarth is offline
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Default Re: Fine breakpoint adjustment change in 12.6 = Showstopper

I'm working in four different setups like many others. Only two of them are PT12. Just to support Shans assumption many of us work in mixed environments.

Mark
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