Urgent: Serious issue with clip effects

[Rich Breen]

What I haven't seen stated (unless I've missed it in this long thread) is do the clips actually indicate whether or not ClipFX have been applied (the little grey "EQ" or "DYN" notation in the upper right hand corner of the clip)?

On my system, and every system I've ever been on, ClipFX are never applied unless you specifically make a change. Are new clips coming in with ClipFX applied? If so, that's for sure a problem.

I agree that this is a UI problem, but I'm not sure I see an actual audio problem on this end; new clips do not have any ClipFX applied and audio is unmodified unless I specifically change something in the ClipFX window.

What am I missing?


Best,
rich

[Bob Katz]

Dear Rich: Thanks. I was not aware of the indicator of clipFX being applied or not. Perhaps it's in the view menu or preferences but it's not showing any EQ or DYN indication on the clip(s).

HOWEVER, When I hit alt-6 (on PC) the clip effects window for a new clip comes up as "Factory Default" unless I change it. At that point further accesses to alt-6 show that the clip remembers its new state, which can be neutralized or bypassed. But factory default has dynamics engaged and the impression I get and any user would get is that means the clip effects are applied to the clip.

I'll look for the indicator you describe which I assume is available on the clip. This is not a particularly long thread! If this is just a UI issue it's pretty damn misleading. Because alt-6 shows that apparently clip effects are always engaged by default. I'll look for the display indicator option and get back to you.

Best wishes,

Bob

Originally Posted by Rich Breen

What I haven't seen stated (unless I've missed it in this long thread) is do the clips actually indicate whether or not ClipFX have been applied (the little grey "EQ" or "DYN" notation in the upper right hand corner of the clip)?

On my system, and every system I've ever been on, ClipFX are never applied unless you specifically make a change. Are new clips coming in with ClipFX applied? If so, that's for sure a problem.

I agree that this is a UI problem, but I'm not sure I see an actual audio problem on this end; new clips do not have any ClipFX applied and audio is unmodified unless I specifically change something in the ClipFX window.

What am I missing?


Best,
rich

[Bob Katz]

Originally Posted by Rich Breen

What I haven't seen stated (unless I've missed it in this long thread) is do the clips actually indicate whether or not ClipFX have been applied (the little grey "EQ" or "DYN" notation in the upper right hand corner of the clip)?

On my system, and every system I've ever been on, ClipFX are never applied unless you specifically make a change. Are new clips coming in with ClipFX applied? If so, that's for sure a problem.

rich

OK, I investigated. I've always had the indication for clip effects turned on if they are engaged. But it's never appeared for me, which should give peace of mind, right? But read on, read on.

View/Clip/Clip Effects Status is checked

If I hit alt-6 with the clip selected and I change the trim level, suddenly the Dyn indicator comes on on the clip. Why that should suddenly come on when it never did before is baffling and the first inconsistency.

I can engage the comp or disengage it, engage the gate or disengage it, but the DYN indicator stays on UNTIL I hit Bypass. With the Factory Default the clip indicator is not on, HOWEVER, Dynamics are ON and both comp and gate are engaged. Am I supposed to trust that it's not engaged because a flakey indicator for the clip is OFF? The internal indications after examining the clip effect with alt-6 are that DYNAMICS ARE ENGAGED. If the behavior I described is "just a UI bug" it's a damn disconcerting one and I don't trust it. I don't trust it at all. I'm going to manually load my personal bypass until Avid fixes the actual problem or the UI bug (unless of course I'm using clip effects on a clip). And ensuring that state is a pain in the ass with (at least on my system) the clip indicator being as inconsistent as it is.

Sorry....

[Rich Breen]

Agreed there is a UI problem here, and really should be fixed. But again, I don't think there's an audio problem here; I've never seen ClipFX do anything without actually changing a parameter, and the ClipFX status will be indicated on the clip (assuming enabled).

That said, if you're nervous about it why screw around with default settings; why not just clear all ClipFX to be certain (Edit->Clear Special-> Clip Effects, or ctl-opt-cmd-b)?


best,
rich

[Bob Katz]

Originally Posted by Rich Breen

Agreed there is a UI problem here, and really should be fixed. But again, I don't think there's an audio problem here; I've never seen ClipFX do anything without actually changing a parameter, and the ClipFX status will be indicated on the clip (assuming enabled).

That said, if you're nervous about it why screw around with default settings; why not just clear all ClipFX to be certain (Edit->Clear Special-> Clip Effects, or ctl-opt-cmd-b)?


best,
rich

Fair enough. Although it's a pain in the ass to have to do that if it is true that the clip effects are enabled. So let me do some measurements because (at least on my system) the indicator that clip effects is enabled is inconsistent --- and when I examine the settings the Dynamics section is engaged. I'll do some tests with test tones and we'll know for sure if it's a UI bug or a real problem.

[Bob Katz]

Rich - I am very sorry to tell you that this is not "just a UI problem". The factory default setting engages the compressor, with a threshold of -24 dBFS and a ratio of 1.01. So it's going to be very subtle, but active. And on my system, the clip DYN indicator in the right hand corner of the clip does not show. As soon as I proved that the compressor was engaged, I ran upstairs to write this note to tell you, but I can say that if I recall correctly, if I change the input trim, then the "DYN" indicator does go on. This is a serious bug. Especially if you capture to a file in the session and then export or commit or whatever from that file it will be exported with a default clip effects so it won't be identical to what you captured! This problem is just as bad as I said at the head of this thread. Very upsetting. Please check for yourself. 2019.12. Windows.

Regards,

Bob

Originally Posted by Rich Breen

Agreed there is a UI problem here, and really should be fixed. But again, I don't think there's an audio problem here; I've never seen ClipFX do anything without actually changing a parameter, and the ClipFX status will be indicated on the clip (assuming enabled).

That said, if you're nervous about it why screw around with default settings; why not just clear all ClipFX to be certain (Edit->Clear Special-> Clip Effects, or ctl-opt-cmd-b)?


best,
rich

[smurfyou]

I'm on 2019.12 on MacOS (10.14.6). My default compressor ratio is 1:1. So no actual compression until it's changed.

I do agree it should default to bypass though. I use Clip EQ every day but I think I can only remember one instance of using Clip Dynamics since it was introduced. And that was just to test it...

They really should add a gain reduction meter too so we know what it's doing.

[Bob Katz]

Originally Posted by smurfyou

I'm on 2019.12 on MacOS (10.14.6). My default compressor ratio is 1:1. So no actual compression until it's changed.

I do agree it should default to bypass though. I use Clip EQ every day but I think I can only remember one instance of using Clip Dynamics since it was introduced. And that was just to test it...

They really should add a gain reduction meter too so we know what it's doing.

Improvements to clip effects will happen, I'm sure, and a GR meter is essential. On my windows system, the default ratio is 1.01. Subtle, but I can't accept any modification to a capture file. For example, I record the output of the master bus to a track. Clip effects are engaged on this new clip and the default on my windows system is a ratio of 1.01 for the compressor.

I'm running Windows 8.1 pro and need to upgrade, wonder if this could be the reason, though I really doubt it.

[Bob Katz]

Originally Posted by Bob Katz

Improvements to clip effects will happen, I'm sure, and a GR meter is essential. On my windows system, the default ratio is 1.01. Subtle, but I can't accept any modification to a capture file. For example, I record the output of the master bus to a track. Clip effects are engaged on this new clip and the default on my windows system is a ratio of 1.01 for the compressor.

I'm running Windows 8.1 pro and need to upgrade, wonder if this could be the reason, though I really doubt it.

Ironically, in Studio A I'm running windows on bootcamp on a MacPro Cheesegrater. I use Windows to run Sequoia for mastering every day. It's far more convenient for me to quit Sequoia and run Pro Tools without rebooting into OSX so I installed the windows version of Pro Tools. In Studio B I'm running Pro Tools on OSX on a Macpro Cylinder (trash can), so I should check the session behavior on OSX. Unfortunately, Studio B has stereo monitoring only and I need 5.1 so I'm mixing the surround project in my surround studio.

[Farhoof]

Hi Bob, please check the interface again, the number are incredibly small, I'll admit, but the standard ratio for compression is actually 1.0:1 and not 1.01 (it only even allows for 1 decimal, there is a very feint 'colon' between 0 and 1).
These are the same default settings as the Avid Channel Strip, where the expander and compressor are also engaged by default, but both are set to the 1:1 ratio (clip fx = channel strip and use the same presets).

Please do not worry, when you drag a clip to the timeline and don't fiddle with the clip fx (and doesn't show either the eq or dyn indicators) there is no alteration of the clip.

There is no fix needed, this is a design choice. Just as the channel strip, it would be cumbersome to first engage all the parameters before you can actually use it. The exception are the low and highpass filters, these filters _always_ alter the sound when engaged as you can't set the frequency below 20Hz or above 21kHz, hence the reason they are disengaged by default.

To be fair, the GUI is not very clear about it because the clip fx is derived from the channel strip using the same parameters. In the clip fx window, the green on/off switches correspond to the aqua EQ-FILT-DYN-VOL buttons on the top of channel strip window. And the orange on/off button of the channel strip window correspond to the texted HF/HMF/LMF/LF/1/2/ExpGate/CompLim buttons.

If there is any doubt please share a screenshot of your factory default clip fx settings (or the Comp/Lim section zoomed in).