Delay Compensation bug in PT11 with AOS plug-ins (fixed in PT 11.2.1)

[Spaced]

So where does it fall apart with the VIs (apologies if you've explained this a thousand times)

Say in SSD, would you route close mic snare to one aux output and the room mic to another, process them differently and then hear the timing is out between them. Just trying to get a handle on your method.

[Ghost In The Attic]

Originally Posted by Spaced

So where does it fall apart with the VIs (apologies if you've explained this a thousand times)

Say in SSD, would you route close mic snare to one aux output and the room mic to another, process them differently and then hear the timing is out between them. Just trying to get a handle on your method.

Yes, it's the routing so I can do separate or parallel processing that's throwing the timing off.

Here is a link to a YouTube video of a guy that does some routing that is similar to mine, if you're interested https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvtfwXyuOk0
Not exactly what I'm doing, but close enough to understand what I'm doing.

[damasio]

Originally Posted by Tim R.

I can see how this issue would most effect EDM when mixing elements from different VIs requiring sample accurate timing. I am working with more of a live feel where the minor discrepancy between two VI's is not an issue, and avoiding Instrument tracks (putting VI's on Audio tracks instead) keeps the multi-outs in sync with each other. As stated, AVID is working on the bug, and people can either deal with the issue in PT11, use PT10 in the mean time or move on.

Tim,

So if i understand you correctly:
You insert VI's on audio tracks in stead of creating instrument tracks?
I didn't know that is possible, does it also accept midi for that channel or do you have to route it?

thanks

[Tim R.]

Originally Posted by damasio

Tim,

So if i understand you correctly:
You insert VI's on audio tracks in stead of creating instrument tracks?
I didn't know that is possible, does it also accept midi for that channel or do you have to route it?

thanks

You can get accurate ADC within a given VI's multi outs by instantiating the VI on an AUDIO track (as apposed to an instrument track) and using aux tracks for the multi-outs. MIDI comes from a separate MIDI track. Keep in mind that this VI (as a whole) will NOT be compensated correctly to OTHER VI tracks, but all Multi-outs for each individual VI will be in sync. Again, for me, the discrepancy between DIFFERENT VI's is not an issue since I'm (generally) not blending these separate VI's.

[ogregomixmaster.net]

This last workaround worked with ezdrummer on pt11. I cannot confirm that the sync is 100% accurate but things certainly don't drift apart. Also, I had all 3 options in "adc for external devices" (preferences/midi tab) unchecked.

[mykhal c]

Originally Posted by Tim R.

You can get accurate ADC within a given VI's multi outs by instantiating the VI on an AUDIO track (as apposed to an instrument track) and using aux tracks for the multi-outs. MIDI comes from a separate MIDI track. Keep in mind that this VI (as a whole) will NOT be compensated correctly to OTHER VI tracks, but all Multi-outs for each individual VI will be in sync. Again, for me, the discrepancy between DIFFERENT VI's is not an issue since I'm (generally) not blending these separate VI's.

if i understand this thread is addressin' the bug with with VI multi-outs on INST and AUX trax...and the AUX trax havin' effects on 'em. however ADC is compensated correctly on VI multi-outs if INST trax are used for the multi-outs also. i use this method all time...SD on a set of 8, K5 on multi-outs, etc etc. now i'm not includin' AUXes in this scenario...just talkin' proper compensation when everything is on an INST. maybe i'm missin' something here...but i've never 'had' to put VIs on AUDIO trax in order to get proper ADC comp. my question is how do you record MIDI usin' this method?

[ECmaj7]

Originally Posted by Spaced

What works for me is this:

AOS instrument on audio track.

Additional instrument outputs routed to auxillary inputs in the normal manner.

MIDI on a MIDI track routed to the VI on the audio track.

On the instrument/audio track, force enable delay compensation by control+command clicking the 'cmp' indicator. It should turn blue.

I've tested this for sync against an audio track (in fact by placing the same click sample on an audio track, phase reversing it and then playing it back with the sample from, in this case, Battery.

They cancel down to about -60dB (which is not as good as PT10, which used to cancel down to the noise floor of the dithered mixer (-138dB)), but the cancellation is consistent regardless of the delay caused by plugins on the aux tracks (across my 8 stereo auxes I used a various numbers of Maxims and Equilibrium (all bands bypassed) in FIR mode with an IR length of 16384- that produces a considerable delay!, but which is still within the compensation range of the delay comp engine.

The technique also works with VEP, which is where I run all my VIs usually.

I havn't been able to make this work with instrument tracks. At all.

See if it works for you.

Thanks, I think this works for me.
I'll bang on it some more.

E

[Spaced]

Originally Posted by mykhal c

if i understand this thread is addressin' the bug with with VI multi-outs on INST and AUX trax...and the AUX trax havin' effects on 'em. however ADC is compensated correctly on VI multi-outs if INST trax are used for the multi-outs also. i use this method all time...SD on a set of 8, K5 on multi-outs, etc etc. now i'm not includin' AUXes in this scenario...just talkin' proper compensation when everything is on an INST. maybe i'm missin' something here...but i've never 'had' to put VIs on AUDIO trax in order to get proper ADC comp. my question is how do you record MIDI usin' this method?

I can confirm this works, with one important caveat. The MIDI being directed to the instrument has to be on the same instrument track as the returning audio in order for the audio to be properly delay compensated. I'll do my best to explain.

If you had, say, a Kontakt multi with various instruments on different MIDI channels being routed to different outputs, the delay compensation will be correct as long as the MIDI feeding the Piano, say, is on the same instrument track as the returning (piano) audio from Kontakt.

Why wouldn't it be you ask? Well in this scenario it's unlikely as that's kinda the point of instrument tracks in the first place, to keep the MIDI and audio together on the same track.

Where it won't work is where you have a complete drum performance, say, on the the initial instrument track (the one with the instrument actually on it) and various kit components routed out to the other instrument tracks being used as auxes to return different kit instruments/mics as audio. In this case the only correctly delay compensated track will be the one with the MIDI and the instrument on it. If you put different plugin combos on the other tracks, the audio will phase or just be plain out of time.

To answer mykhal's question about how you record MIDI when you have the instrument on an audio track, the answer's simple- on a MIDI track, with it's output directed to the instrument. This is how it was in PT in the days before instrument tracks (and delay compensation, as far as I remember)

[Spaced]

For Ghostrider. I picked up a copy of SSD (just the cheap £20 one) to see how it performed and it seems to work fine using the 'Force Delay Compensation' method. Below is a pick of the test setup and a zoom in of the audio with FDC off and on.

Does this differ from the way you use SSD?

[Ghost In The Attic]

Originally Posted by Spaced

For Ghostrider. I picked up a copy of SSD (just the cheap £20 one) to see how it performed and it seems to work fine using the 'Force Delay Compensation' method. Below is a pick of the test setup and a zoom in of the audio with FDC off and on.

Does this differ from the way you use SSD?

Yes, it differs a bit.

Take the snare top and snare bottom from SSD's multi-outputs and route them each to an aux track input. Put EQ on each and a gate on the snare bottom. Then route the outputs of both to the input of a stereo snare track aux. Now create another stereo aux for parallel processing (let's call it Squish) and put a compressor, EQ, etc... on it. Create a send on both the snare top and snare bottom and route them to the input of the Squish aux. You now have a clean snare track and a compressed track.

I actually take it a step further and create a stereo Drum aux, then route the combined outputs of the snare top and snare bottom, along with the combined kick in, kick out, rooms, etc... to it. Now I have an unprocessed full kit track and a processed full kit track sitting next to each other. Plus, I can still tweak each drum separately.

I could go into more detail, but I think you get the idea. I end up with very organized and flexible drums that I can manipulate individually or as groups to get precisely what I am after.

Hopes this helps.

Thanks for getting SSD and trying it. I appreciate you taking the time.