Confidentiality of ProTools Files and Settings

[PTUser NYC]

Well, this just confirms what we've all been suspecting.

The point that you so obviously ignore and attempt to conflate into some tangential argument is that it IS possible to appropriate an engineers skillset by virtue of it being so readily available via a PT file.

No it isn't. Every situation is different, and the appropriate processing depends on the source file, the song, the key, your approach - art.

I quickly wised up to the fact that this can be and IS a very mercenary business. That's why i've survived it for 26 years while my competitors are long gone.

You're not the only person on this board to have a long career in music. I've worked with a bunch of grammy award winners, and they have been very generous in sharing techniques, point of view, and artistic points of view.

The ONLY thing that distinguishes me from the pack is my knowhow.

This is always true. And stealing your plug in settings and parrallel compression bussing techniques is not going to give someone who has no taste a valid point of view. Maybe you are selling yourself too short. It is your experience, ears, and sonic expectation set that make you a good engineer.

I'm in Boston and within an SM57's throw (that's a microphone, dude)

Your assumption that I don't have engineering chops at least equal to yours is defensive, and shows what's really driving this discussion. You can't be criticized, even when you come on this board freely admitting your selfish point of view.

When I said "dude" I was hoping to appeal to any scrap of humanity left inside you. Unfortunately, it seems the "mercenary" persona has taken over. You are operating under fear, and the joy of music is being neglected.

I make my living doing recorded music, so its not like I don't understand that times have gotten tough - its just that I refuse to sell my humanity to try to get ahead.

Maybe YOU don't feel competent enough to value your skills to care about them.

Another ad hoc attack shows your insecurity. You can't beat people up into making your selfishness less selfish.

And to PT User NYC: "You gotta help people dude, this is MUSIC, and life and all that good stuff."

I love my job and love the people I work with. I'm extremely generous with my time and money ... and treat everyone with respect and consideration, I just wish everyone else did! I'm just wise enough to know that this business, like life itself, ain't a picnic in the park - and without a healthy music MUSIC BUSINESS, there is no "MUSIC".

Business is about getting a job, doing the job, and getting paid for it. What you're proposing is a non standard way of working that artifically promotes the engineer's contribution to the project over the writer, artist and producer. Its yucky.

[smlworld]

Newbury (just to make this clear) You know - given that you've got so many years experience you sure can write like a young prick. (And to think I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.) I'll try to respond to some of your writing, although I warn you ahead that you make yourself a pretty easy target.

"The point that you so obviously ignore and attempt to conflate into some tangential argument is that it IS possible to appropriate an engineers skillset by virtue of it being so readily available via a PT file"

In my 8 more years experience than you I have worked with some of the best recording engineers in the world. (You aren't on that list) And there's nothing you or I could steal from them because they have world class ears, musicality and diplomacy. They have a god given talent and the ability to know where to place a microphone in a room. There's no pro tools setting for that and never will be.

Your use of the word "conflate" is interesting. because you must re-read your writing and understand just how conflated it is.

"Any boob with a with a credit card and a worthless Berklee degree proclaiming him an "engineer" can now assemble an equivalent array of hardware as mine and call himself a studio all within the confines of his cozy apartment bedroom. IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME, EVERYWHERE. And that's why it's difficult to make a living in this business."

On the one hand you come off with so much arrogance. Your 20 year chops, your use of the word "chumchange" and that sort of thing.. But when you degrade Berklee with one ignorant swoop it makes you appear as redneck cliche. And your point is these kids can't do WELL what you do. And I agree. It takes realworld experience. (please take note of areas in which we agree because they are few)

BUT then you say these 'Berklee boobs with credit cards and their worthless degrees' make it difficult for you to make a living. Which is it? I thought you made a good living. With your mercenary attitude I would think you would take joy at seeing your competition flail and burn.

"And NO, I'm not making any claims of superiority, but I DO know my stuff through many years of hard work and experimentation and don't need someone's videos to tell me how to do my job. Maybe YOU don't feel competent enough to value your skills to care about them. "

Man that's just mean and conflated. Your writing belies you. You are making claims of superiority. It drips from your writing. I don't know if you are refrencing Kenny G's videos but I would wager you COULD learn something from them. But then again - with your SUPERIOR SKILLS it would appear if you have mastered it all.

As for me feeling "competent enough to value my skills to care about them." I just don't know what you are jabbing at. I'll tell you a secret. After this many years I'm still open to learning new skills. I could rest on my laurels but then I would sound so much like you it would make me want to puke.

Wow this was a fun thread.

[newburysound]

Notice that he has only a few posts on here, and yet some of them are already asking US to help HIM. What a jerk.
So, for future internet searchers, a poem:
Newbury Sound, complaint, selfish, won't give full tracks, opinion, rating, service, trouble, problem, feedback, negative, avoid, won't do business with.

Gee, that's intelligent! 770 posts, eh, are they all gems or was I the only one fortunate enough to have been accorded such a unique display of articulation and profundity. Look, Mr. PTUserNYC, maybe I don't feel the need to broadcast to the world every little brain-fart that pops into my head for all the world to hear or smell as the case may be - as if any one cares. As the saying goes opinions are like [bleep] ... everyone's got one, and there's nothing special about mine and believe it or not, yours either.

To those who responded with sincerity and professionalism to my original prompt, I say thank you. Some may agree with me and some may not and that's totally cool ... it's what make the world interesting. That's why I originally posted it, and that's why I'll continue to OCCASIONALLY post a question in spite of the PTUserNYC's of the world. Jesus, lighten up already, will yah!

[soundboy35]

Just going to add a sort of .02 here...

On one hand if, you make it clear in your contract that you are going to deliver only processed files and no session file, and the client agrees, then that's what the have agreed to. Without the next engineer having your plugins, the session file is not going to get them too far. Plus, those settings only worked in that song because of the tones, frequencies, etc, and in another session, they probably won't work as well. It is then that the new engineer has to shine. That's the real test. Besides, the session file does not contain the most valuable info, which we all know includes things like the room, mics, preamps, etc., oh and yes...ears and skill.
I'm not so sure that I see this as paranoia, but as a somewhat working engineer in LA, no one has to remind me about the competition here. You can go to many websites, Music Connection, etc., throw a ten ton rock, and see a slew of Pro Tools HD studios for $20/hr. Chances are, you're not going to get a label ready or radio ready mix for $20/hr...lol As far as the schools, having been a teacher out here, these kids seem much more interested in "making beats" than learning consoles or compression techniques, etc. I'm going to say that after woking in some studios that employ some of the students from schools that cost 15k -?, they'll be getting food for clients for some time and are NOWHERE NEAR ready to take on clients for a label or major movie from the education they come out with. However, there are some that are there to learn, and hopefully they will take it to the next level.
With the karma thing, even if someone took credit for your mix or mine or whomever, and got the next job because of it, it would certainly be apparent that the skills probably weren't theirs when they have to start from scratch. At that point the question would certainly arise as far as did they really do the first mix, and then someone else would most likely get the gig.
I greatly appreciate guys like Produceher sharing his awesome videos with us! Just watching the Beat Detective vids, has helped me a great deal (keep 'em coming) I feel pretty safe in saying that we all learned from others along the way. The thing is, can you take those techniques and make them
your own by bettering them?
As far as losing money/points from a mix that was taken to someone else, yes that blows! Seems to me that could be protected by a clause in your contract up front?

Thanks for listening...

[newburysound]

smlworld, thanks for the response. Maybe you should reread my original post which appears at the bottom.

I don't think you'll find any references about me being the singular authority of all things ProTools and the world of audio. In fact I make the oposite claim right from the top, but I do make the claim that I know my stuff. Yes, I can come off as a "young prick" as you described, but it's always in defense of some diatribe leveled against me, personally, rather than addressing the original issue. None of it was leveled against you I might add.

It might behoove you to examine some of your comments as well, like the following:
"In my 8 more years experience than you I have worked with some of the best recording engineers in the world. (You aren't on that list) "

So then maybe that make YOU the singular authority of all things ProTools and the world of audio? Is sure as heck sounds at least a little self-indulgent, does it not? ... See how easy it is to get off track!

Just for the record, If I wanted to comes across as some sort of know-it-all, I would have made reference to my 2300+ clients and over 60 live radio broadcasts with New Englands largest radio station WBCN. And I could have mentioned clients like Dave Matthews, Queens of The Stone Age, New Kids on The Block, Markie Mark, Aimme Mann, The Cars, J Geils, Todd Rungren, Roger Waters (Pink Floyd), Marianne Faithful, Travis, Extreme, Hothouse Flowers, David Bowie, Quincy Jones, Peter Frampton, GrandMaster Flash, Hubert Sumlin, Branford Marsalis, Nancy Kerrigan, Duke Robillard, Livingston Taylor and a few others. And I could have mentioned 4 Gold Records and that I also serve as a consultant for a number of corporate clients including a recent multi-radio-station complex in Boston and spec'ed out 8 complete PT systems and provided personal training for 25 plus engineers for same.

But to date, I'm sorry to say I haven't yet made your "list". But maybe I'll be fortunate enough to do so one day. Additionally, my diversification in the industry keeps me financially afloat and doing very well thank you.

Just for the record, I'm always engaged in problem-solving discussions with other associates and we often exchange tips among ourselves. We just take a dim view of broadcasting them everywhere.It's an issue we all face. And with reference to Berklee, yes they do provide a contemporary textbook understanding of the audio industry and I've come across at least a number of competent pronmising aspirants who will no doubt go on to become great engineers on their own. As for the others, we won't go into that. Just don't forget, however, that Berklee is a corporate entity engaged in pursuing maximum return on investment and shareholder value. I find in appaling that there are SO many MPE graduates who NEVER go on to find gainful employment in a declining industry and are saddled with 150-200k of debt to boot.

In any event, the original question at hand was simply posited as an extension of a discussion I've often had with other engineers in my community. It's sad that so many individuals find it so threatening.

[badboymusic]

With Chris Lord-Alge, Dave Pensado and Charles Dye (to name a few) plug-in settings readily available. Anyone can drop those onto their mix and send it off to the record label. We all know that is not the case. Your plug-in settings are most likely not that much different than theirs. It's our ability to adapt to each mix that sets us apart. Plug-in settings can not do that.

[newburysound]

smlworld: Maybe you should reread my original post which appears at the bottom. Sounds like you're missing the point.

I don't think you'll find anything beyond the positing of a simple debatable issue. There are no references in it about me being the singular authority of all things ProTools and the world of audio. You're making that claim about me. In point of fact, I make the oposite claim right from the top, in my original post. I do make the claim that I know my stuff, like many of us who've dedicated so much of ourselves to it and my clients seem to agree. Yes, I regret to say, I did come off as a "young prick" as you described me and I can see how others might misinterpret my intent, but it's only in defense of the diatribe leveled against me, personally, rather than addressing the original issue. None of it was leveled against you I might add, so maybe you shoudn't be so trigger-fingered with your assessments. It also might behoove you to examine some of your comments as well, like the following:

"In my 8 more years experience than you I have worked with some of the best recording engineers in the world. (You aren't on that list) "

Well I guess you showed me! So then that obvously maybe sorta kinda makes YOU the singular authority of all things ProTools and the world of audio?
It sure as heck sounds at least a little self-serving and self-indulgent, does it not? ... See how easy it is to get off track!

If I wanted to comes across as some sort of know-it-all, I would have originally made reference to my 2300+ clients and over 60 live radio broadcasts I've enginnered with New Englands largest radio station, WBCN. And I could have mentioned some of my clients like Dave Matthews, Queens of The Stone Age, New Kids on The Block, Markie Mark, Aimme Mann, The Cars, J Geils, Todd Rungren, Roger Waters (Pink Floyd), Marianne Faithful, Travis, Extreme, Hothouse Flowers, David Bowie, Quincy Jones, Peter Frampton, GrandMaster Flash, Hubert Sumlin, Branford Marsalis, Nancy Kerrigan, Duke Robillard, Livingston Taylor and a few others you might recognize. And I could have mentioned 4 Gold Records and that I also serve as a consultant for a number of corporate clients including a recent multi-radio-station complex in Boston that hired me to spec out 8 complete PT systems and provide personal training for 25 plus engineers for same not to mention gobs of individual users on my own.

But alas, to date, I'm sorry to say I haven't yet made your "list". Heck, maybe I'll be fortunate enough to do so one day - and just for your edification, since you brought it up, my diversification in the industry keeps me financially afloat and doing very well - thanks for asking.

And with reference to Berklee, yes they do provide a contemporary textbook understanding of the audio recording techniques and I've come across at least a number of competent promising aspirants who with years of experience, will no doubt go on to become great engineers on their own. As for the others, we won't go into detail - they're the types to which I originally alluded. Just don't be deluded into thinking that Berklee is simply a divinely-ordained institution of learning. It's also become a corporate behemoth, locally here in Boston, engaged in pursuing maximum return on investment and shareholder value and gobbling up loads of downtown tax-exempt real estate. So unless you're from here, like I am, maybe you need to to a little homework. Personally, I find it appaling that SO many gradutaes of their MP&E engineering program (their largest) and the scores of other schools in this, America's largest college town, offering the same will NEVER go on to find gainful employment in a declining industry and are saddled with 150-200k of debt to boot. Hence the "worthless Berklee degree" comment. It guarantees nothing outside of a humungous debt load. That's the harsh reality of it, like it or not. Don't just drink the punch because someone offers it up.

In any event, the original question at hand was simply posited as an extension of a discussion I've often had with other engineers in my community. It's sad that some individuals find it so threatening. For the record, I'm always engaged in problem-solving discussions with other associates and we often exchange tips among ourselves. We just take a dim view of broadcasting them everywhere. It's an issue we all face . If you don't agree ... NO BIGGIE!

Original Post:
I've spent over 20 years developing my chops as an engineer, the last 6 using ProTools exclusively. I've come up with MANY personal plug-in settings, track assignment and nifty moves utilizing my long-cultivated expertise, that make my services unique. I'm not stating I'm the best engineer on the planet, but I am well-respected for my work with many long-term clients and work with ongoing projects with them from start to finish without the files ever leaving my studio. Sometimes I''ll get client files coming in to do additional work and often notice the abysmal level of engineering represented with them. When it comes time for these short-term clients to leave the studio with a completed project mix file, I explain to them that I'll provide them with the raw audio files, processed with plug-in efects, bounced out and zeroed-out for easy cueing to a new PT file elsewhere. I won't provide them with the actual PT project file which contains proprietary engineering data on how I achieved those sonic characteristics. I do, however, save their files in my library if they want to return. Some clients understand, some don't, but I stick to my guns about it. My justification is that within that PT file, I've embedded all my personal settings and moves that a competing engineer can cop - be they competitive pros or neophytes. I don't think I'm being paranoid here, as I know that when I first stared out on PT many years ago, I used to do that very same thing when presented with an accomplished engineer's project file to work on. I would go over it with a fine-toothed comb to cop any ideas that created a great-sounding audio track. This is something unique in the digital age, given that back in the analog days, it would have been ludicrous to provide a client with a complete roadmap of all the engineering manevers used on an analog project which a competitor could appropriate. I'm curious to hear back from other experienced users facing the same dilemma.

[dr sound]

Guys,
If your going to preach, sign your name. If you don't sign your name how can anyone respect your views.
It's easy to hide and throw stones.

[RSSstudio]

I think I had this paranoia issue myself the first times I turned in mixes. Guys, really... who gives a crap?

If you can't teach others what you did, then you must not know what you did. Like someone stated already, CLA and other top mixers give their presets out and talk about everything they do in interviews, etc. Think about it now, whomever started this post... the people at the top of their fields give out all their tips in books, interviews, etc. They have books written about their methods, and have a sea of fans and admirers looking up to them at all times. They'd never get to the top if they couldn't explain why their method was better than others...no will admire a big secret aka your big, bad plug-in settings if you can't say why you used it or how it's implemented.

If someone's out to get you by demolishing your mix or secretly hijacking your plug-in settings...I mean really, how far are they going to get? WATCH OUT NOW...I DONE STOLE YOUR KICK DRUM EQ SETTINGS!!!!!! YOU ARE GOING DOWNNN AND WITH THIS KNOWLEDGE I'M GOING TO NEVER HIRE YOU AGAIN!!!

There's only one instance I can think of where it's appropriate to entirely cover your tracks. It's called when you are garbage, you don't know how to use Pro Tools, and you don't want anyone to know about it!

I once recieved a PT session with an engineer who was mindless and should've covered his tracks and deleted everything like Mr. Paranoid Poster is suggesting we all do. This guy's choice of plug-ins that loaded on each track, his organization of the session, and apparent disregard for professionalism made me never want to work with him again. Putting (no joke) FOUR seven band EQ's, all doing major boosts and cuts in a row on a kick drum track spells retardation to me... everything was out of order, named improperly, etc...it was a mess. Conversely, if you nail a mix ITB, why not show it off from the inside out? If someone wants to tinker with it...just be upfront and ask that you be notified in a friendly way (as in you just want to know what changes they made).

The ONLY time I've ever been secretive has been passing along a session where I did serious "turd polishing" and flip-flipped so many parts in editing that it was hardly mixing work...primarily production and my own creative spin on everything. For those parts, I definitely bounced them and tossed the chopping and automation. Not because I didn't want anyone to know (it was obvious from A/B'ing the original to mine) but just because I wanted it to be a commited part. Same as printing FX you don't want changed later.

In closing, this entire thread is pointless. We all learned from other people, be it watching over their shoulder, disecting mixes, stealing files/samples, or just getting to the point and asking. If someone really wants to know what EQ you used and you won't tell them, there are plenty of plug-ins and analyzers that'll get them close anyways. It's not like they're deaf (I'd hope not at least)... they'll figure it out eventually if they want to. How did you learn how to EQ things? Hmmmm?

[12thandVine]

Hi ...

I'm but a humble mastering engineer but FWIW my experience is that I really doubt that it's your settings that matter ... your real talent is knowing which of those proprietary settings to use and when to use them in the context of each project to bring out the best in the music and impart the unique sonic character that people seem hire you for.

Whilst I can surely appreciate where you're coming from ... being objective: empowering some guy with a bunch of settings isn't going to make them you.

As others have said, you can fix credits and point issues in the up front contract.

Kind regards,

Paul Blakey
12th & Vine Post