Confidentiality of ProTools Files and Settings

[badboymusic]

My experience over the last 25 plus years is the more talented the mixer or engineer, the more willing they are to share and help others. Plug-in settings do not make a great mix. Pull them out of one mix and drop them into another and what have you got?

[ProTooler]

I just give the client the session copy; but, admittedly, I'm not mixing 100% in the box. I fan out 32 tracks into a digital console and do some additional processing and fader levels there, so my recall is in two places: ITB and in the consoles scene memory. The plug settings are given to the client, but they can't open the session and just start where I left off.

I would feel cheated in the scenario that Kenny decsribed with the back end point getting ripped off, which could happen in this world of schmeisters in the music business.

Kenny said it best when he said, "May Kharma smile on you".

I further agree with PTYser NYC that if this is an issue for you, it should be put in writing in advance of the band hiring you. Let 'em know up front that you intend to protect your intellectual property rights.

Good luck...

[smlworld]

"when I first stared out on PT many years ago, I used to do that very same thing when presented with an accomplished engineer's project file to work on. I would go over it with a fine-toothed comb to cop any ideas that created a great-sounding audio track."

I find the original post so glaringly hypocritical that I'm surprised no one has pointed out the fact that he developed those "proprietary " ideas from other peoples work.

Secondly - since every human being perceives music, movies, reality differently - than why worry about your 'moves'? Personally when I see producher's videos (and i've been in the business a VERY long time) i want to hire the guy. Or, because of his generosity, I want to get him more work. Either way I took an instant liking to anyone who is so generous.

I do appreciate the experience and knowledge gained and the pride one takes in their work. But if we, as a generation, are not willing to share techniques and knowledge then we end up with talentless offspring.

People who steal ideas - steal because they don't have the talent or the work ethic of the original poster. If they gain from stealing that's their karma.

and as far as producher getting hired to do a mix and getting a point - then his contract should cover that point no matter what happens down the line. in the film business pretty much EVERYONE is a work for hire. Including the director and the composer and everyone else.

You guys have legitimate points but I don't see where you can have "proprietary" ownership on your mixes unless you wrote the software and the plug ins.

[Shawn Simpson]

My main concern and the one Kenny voiced too is that my session file could be taken and changed. If there are tiny tweaks and someone else takes credit for the whole mix, then it bothers me. Does it bother me to the point of litigation? Of course not. The more concerning thing is that somebody changes the mix drastically but still leaves my name on it. I guess I'm trying to have it both ways here but it's a matter of people's perception of my work. Before I was given projects to mix, I primarily did editing and tuning work. The same thing applied if I tuned a vocal and had it shining like a new penny, then heard the record on the radio and it sounded like Cher and Uncle Kracker birthed a computer generated voice! If the credits showed me as the guy responsible for that, I'd be pretty upset. I followed the mantra to "leave no footprints" when I was working on vocals and that's a big reason people hired me. It could hurt my business if somebody credited me with terrible sounding work. I feel the same way about mixes now, though my mixes aren't quite hitting the same stage as my vocal editing work was.

So there you go. I always voice these concerns to the client ahead of time and I've yet to have anyone complain. I HAVE had people who admitted they wanted me to mix 2 or 3 songs so they could see what I'd do with them and they could try to mimic that on the rest of the project. My response is that I'm a teacher AND an engineer and if they want me to help them with the mixes, I can do that but it will take longer and cost a little more money. In the end though, they don't have to "deconstruct" what I did, I'll show them what I did and explain why...hence the extra time. I have absolutely no problem sharing techniques with others. Somebody showed them to me at one time too.

[smlworld]

This thread comes down 2 ways. One - I don't give away my secrets.

Two - don't alter or take credit for my work.

On point one - That is up to the engineer.

Ponit Two - Don't change my work. - again if you guys sign nearly any contract you become a Work For Hire. In the film business, Jerry Goldmsith, one of the most brilliant film composers of my generation, became a work for hire on every movie. That meant the Director of the movie could make edits, fade the music or move the music he wrote for one scene and play it in another. Now, because Goldsmith was so highly respected that didn't happen often. He also had a pit bull of a Music Editor named Kenny Hall (who mentored me) Jerry had several scores thrown out but that happens to all composers. The point being - you lose control. Your baby is no longer yours when you are a work for hire. As far as having your name associated with something that, in your opinion, stinks - well that depends on the power of your contract. People have their names removed from projects when it gets that bad. As far as having your work go uncredited (where others take credit) that becomes more complicated. It happens ALL THE TIME. The only comfort is knowing that our peers know we were involved in the project. Again if you are credited on a project then people will get wise to the fact that X-Producer is taking credit for your work.

"Does it bother me to the point of litigation?"

Shawn - may i suggest that - maybe it should bother you to the point of having a good contract to start with. Then you don't have to sue but you go in highly regarded on the beginning of the project. (nobody wants to sue unless they are very rich)

We all want to be Paddy Chayefski, other than the fact that he's dead... He was one of the few screenwriters whose words could not be altered. But it takes work to get there. And the older I am the more inclined I am to think a good contract is the best upfront way to get there. At least it paves the way. Hope to god you don't have to get involved in a law suit. They eat up money and creative energy that could be spent elsewhere.

[holden]

There is a squeaky-clean way to do this:

Before any contract has commenced:

1. Point out to the client that not everyone works it the way you do.

2. Point out to them both the costs and benefits of your way and the other way.

3. Offer them a referral to other available quality mix engineers who will give them the session file as part of their standard package.

4. (optional) Briefly explain to them your reasons.

This shouldn't take more than 3 minutes. Better even, do this in writing and/or include it in your contract with the client.

You could also consider offering a premium service where you give the client the session file and certain rights for a price that makes you comfortable.

If you are concerned about credit, get a music attorney to draw up a standard contract for you that guarantees that you will at least be given the opportunity to share credit for the mix if someone manipulates it after it leaves your shop. It may not be worth your while to pursue the matter in court if someone were to violate the terms of that contract, but it would be a good deterrent, particularly for deep-pocketed record companies.

[PTUser NYC]

I find the original post so glaringly hypocritical that I'm surprised no one has pointed out the fact that he developed those "proprietary " ideas from other peoples work.

I think I said so, but regardless, it IS amazingly hypocritical, I agree. Notice that he has only a few posts on here, and yet some of them are already asking US to help HIM. What a jerk.

I'm chuckling at the area he chose to post in too: "Tips and Techniques" - I suppose he felt that it was a forum about hiding those things.

What's really silly about all of this is that we all know that it takes more than a plug in setting to be a mixer. You need to know WHY it was used, and have that internal point of view that set the tone for the mix before you even start - so this is all just extra silly.

I can't imagine taking a comped lead vocal, and losing the ability to change crossfades, or cut points etc. just to hide the engineers precious compressor setting.

I answered quick and harsh because I find this SO distasteful. The more I think about it the more I get put off. So, for future internet searchers, a poem:

Newbury Sound, complaint, selfish, won't give full tracks, opinion, rating, service, trouble, problem, feedback, negative, avoid, won't do business with.

That's my little poem about how I feel about this.

[smlworld]

I answered quick and harsh because I find this SO distasteful. The more I think about it the more I get put off. So, for future internet searchers, a poem:



[/QUOTE]


I'm sorry. I didn't mean to incite anyone like that. It was i who was too harsh. (having been woken way too early by 4 little girls on a sleepover) If you check his site out there are a few pages of tips. He has a lot of high profile clients. I don't begrudge him for honestly stating his feelings. I just... strongly disagree. And I wanted to point out that maybe he lost his youthful sense of accomplishment and how great it would be to do some mentoring of his own . (I'm more inclined to the Miracle on 34th Street where Kris Kringle sends shoppers to the competition - and the old adage that you'll get more flies with honey than with vinegar.

although now that i think about it - WHY would anyone want more flies?

[PTUser NYC]

If you check his site out there are a few pages of tips.

Mostly tips for being prepard for going into his studio though.

He has a lot of high profile clients.

Maybe.

I don't begrudge him for honestly stating his feelings. I just... strongly disagree.

I don't begrudge him for doing WHATEVER he wants to do. As long as he says so up front, its completely fine. I wouldn't choose to work with him, but maybe some folks will. That's fine - that's nornal competition.

But to point it out after the session is over is my problem with it. Its too late by then.

I'm also put off by his proprietary attitude, but there's nothing illegal about being selfish.

[newburysound]

"when I first stared out on PT many years ago, I used to do that very same thing when presented with an accomplished engineer's project file to work on. I would go over it with a fine-toothed comb to cop any ideas that created a great-sounding audio track."

I find the original post so glaringly hypocritical that I'm surprised no one has pointed out the fact that he developed those "proprietary " ideas from other peoples work.

The point that you so obviously ignore and attempt to conflate into some tangential argument is that it IS possible to appropriate an engineers skillset by virtue of it being so readily available via a PT file. I never had that concern when I first started out in the industry, but I had nothing to lose and everything to gain. I quickly wised up to the fact that this can be and IS a very mercenary business. That's why i've survived it for 26 years while my competitors are long gone. Doesn't mean I don't have MANY rewarding professional contacts and clientele, I do, but I'm wise enough to know that if I leave my back door open, I'm gonna get ripped off. Any boob with a with a credit card and a worthless Berklee degree proclaiming him an "engineer" can now assemble an equivalent array of hardware as mine and call himself a studio all within the confines of his cozy apartment bedroom. IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME, EVERYWHERE. And that's why it's difficult to make a living in this business. WAY WAY too much supply for the demand driving down the rate structure, and WAY WAY too little recognition for a journeyman engineers talents. The ONLY thing that distinguishes me from the pack is my knowhow. I'm in Boston and within an SM57's throw (that's a microphone, dude) in any direction, you can fine a number of colleges and institutions, Berklee by far being the biggest offender, cranking out thousands of "audio engineers" each year, the vast majority of whom have little if ANY practical experience with the real world of audio and what it takes to be a real engineer. And NO, I'm not making any claims of superiority, but I DO know my stuff through many years of hard work and experimentation and don't need someone's videos to tell me how to do my job. Maybe YOU don't feel competent enough to value your skills to care about them.

And to PT User NYC: "You gotta help people dude, this is MUSIC, and life and all that good stuff."

I love my job and love the people I work with. I'm extremely generous with my time and money ... and treat everyone with respect and consideration, I just wish everyone else did! I'm just wise enough to know that this business, like life itself, ain't a picnic in the park - and without a healthy music MUSIC BUSINESS, there is no "MUSIC".