Limiter on master bus useless?

[Sean Russell]

Originally Posted by mdb

I ment +12 using the limiter/compressor.

What kind of music are you working on?

12 db at the limiter on the mix bus is pretty heavy-handed, and can be quite fatiguing...

[mdb]

Sorry I had to mention this right away: I'ts not music I'm working on but audio post production. I forgot that most users create music with it

[PTUser NYC]

Hmm. I'm surprised that no one has said a few things here yet.

First off, the Pro Tools mixer isn't like an analog mixer. In an analog mixer, if you're overdriving the master fader, you need to pull down the individual faders. Lowering the master fader on an analog console when the mix bus is being distorted is too late, you just make the distorted mix quieter, but not less distorted. That fader is after the distortion point.

But in Pro Tools, the master fader isn't like that. It's just a coefficient on the summing math of each individual fader! This is (in part) why plug ins on a Master Fader are always POST FADER.

This means that if your Pro Tools mix bus is distorting, pulling down the master fader WILL stop the bus from distorting. That's a good way to deal with this.

As for not being able to use a limiter, yes of course you can use a limiter plug in on the Master Fader, I'm not sure what the questioner is asking.

If you're asking why a limiter won't save the bus from distorting, then I gotta say, "right, it won't" you gotta pull down the master fader. Call me confused tho, because you can't save an analog console from distortion by limiting the master fader either.

But above all of this, you're recording too hot. There's almost no reason to ever have your mix bus distorting like that. Maybe if you're working with previously mastered material, i.e. making a reel or something, but in general practice, your levels should NEVER be that high.

[uno1234]

Originally Posted by PTUser NYC

Hmm. I'm surprised that no one has said a few things here yet.

First off, the Pro Tools mixer isn't like an analog mixer. In an analog mixer, if you're overdriving the master fader, you need to pull down the individual faders. Lowering the master fader on an analog console when the mix bus is being distorted is too late, you just make the distorted mix quieter, but not less distorted. That fader is after the distortion point.

But in Pro Tools, the master fader isn't like that. It's just a coefficient on the summing math of each individual fader! This is (in part) why plug ins on a Master Fader are always POST FADER.

This means that if your Pro Tools mix bus is distorting, pulling down the master fader WILL stop the bus from distorting. That's a good way to deal with this.

As for not being able to use a limiter, yes of course you can use a limiter plug in on the Master Fader, I'm not sure what the questioner is asking.

If you're asking why a limiter won't save the bus from distorting, then I gotta say, "right, it won't" you gotta pull down the master fader. Call me confused tho, because you can't save an analog console from distortion by limiting the master fader either.

But above all of this, you're recording too hot. There's almost no reason to ever have your mix bus distorting like that. Maybe if you're working with previously mastered material, i.e. making a reel or something, but in general practice, your levels should NEVER be that high.

What he said.

[BaileyBass]

Originally Posted by uno1234

What he said.

And what Andre Knecht said, many moons ago.. which aligns with what PTUser NYC said....

Master Faders — the most widely misunderstood feature in ProTools.

A Master Fader does NOT control an Output, but, rather, the Input of a logical address (a path) in the PT mixer. It’s a subtle but fundamental difference. Think of a Master Fader as an attenuator placed at the input of any mixer component and you’re on the right (ahem) track.

A Master Fader does NOT govern the routing of signals because it is placed at the input of a (any) stage within the PT mixer. The routing of signals is determined by the output selector found on each PT channel (“track,” in ProTools-speak). The Output selector is the equivalent to an analog console’s buss selector (typically found at the top of a strip). A Master Fader is the equivalent to the Trim pot for a line input channel on an analog console (i.e. a return from the multi-track recorder).
For each and every channel (PT “track”), be it Audio or AUX, the user determines its destination(s). That’s where the routing occurs. A master Fader only controls the summed level of these routing decisions.

These “Master Faders” — these attenuators — are always present with their gain set to 0 dB (i.e. no attenuation) whenever one instantiates any routing. The act of adding a Master Fader to a session, is to make the attenuator visible, so its value can be changed.

This seems like a good spot/time to pause and [again] stipulate that the PT documentation could be a wee bit (cough) more detailed about all this. Having said that, fundamentally this isn’t any different from what one finds on an analog console. It’s just a matter of how much is made available to the operator, and how. Over the years, commonly needed and used paths in hardware consoles have been made available via “normalled” and dedicated paths — convenience vs. versatility. Within ProTools, these “standard” paths are also available — they just need to be “created” from scratch.

[End of earlier post]

IHTH

__________________
Andre Knecht

We’ll fix it in the shrink-wrap. (Frank Zappa)

[PTUser NYC]

Originally Posted by BaileyBass

And what Andre Knecht said, many moons ago.. which aligns with what PTUser NYC said....

Hahaha where do you think *I* learned it?

[Sean Halley]

"because it has no 32bit floating point, or leaving it that way and limiting it using the headroom (that HD does not have)."

I would think that the 300 db of available headroom should be enough. If you're needing to stomp on something that hard, especially because you're claiming that there is a sonic reason for doing so, you might consider submixing some elements - think major food groups - if that helps. That way you can pummel some of those explosions mercilessly on an individual basis, and leave the rest of the mix alone to breathe.

I agree with my namesake Russel 12 db of real reduction is....er....a lot. If you "weren't able to use limiters in Pro Tools HD", half of the plugins sold for the platform would have been purchased in vain

S..

[mdb]

Originally Posted by Sean Halley

I would think that the 300 db of available headroom should be enough.

Am I missing something? Where do you get the 300dB headroom? If a bus is +1dB, a limiter won't help reducing this +1 dB to 0 dB since it's already clipped. So where is my headroom then?

[formfunction]

Originally Posted by mdb

Am I missing something? Where do you get the 300dB headroom? If a bus is +1dB, a limiter won't help reducing this +1 dB to 0 dB since it's already clipped. So where is my headroom then?

Google dBFS and dBVU ..... there are fundamental issues that you are missing. ff

[WernerF]

Hey mdb, you might want to listen to all of the poeple that are suggesting that there is a lot that you need to learn about basic recording techniques. They are dead on. What you need to know applies to both music and post. The fact that you think the basic techniques for each are different just supports the fact that you have a lot to learn and that you'ld be better off learning that stuff and forgetting about arguing about limiters until you done with the first part.