PT HD over LE ? pros ?

[shutiri]

Hello,

I'm thinking about upgrading my LE Digi002 to HD2 or HD3. I'm wondering about the pros/advantages of HD over LE, in our times of modern computers with great processing power :)

I mean, is there any sound quality difference between working at 96/24 in LE versus 96/24 in HD ?

On the other hand, since we're still slaves of the 4Gb on 32 bits, there's no difference between LE and HD Ram-wise, right ? My big ram demanding VIs (Trillian, BFD, Kontakt) will still be performing in a less than optimal manner... Or HD will take part of the load ? As far as I understand, the HD cards are just for processing, not for memory, am I right ?

Thank you for your advices,
Shutiri

[nst7]

There's been many threads on this you can look up, but a couple of thoughts:

The sound quality is determined by the A/D and D/A converters. The ones in the 002/003 are much lower quality than the 192 IO. But if you used a separate good quality converter into your 002/003, then this wouldn't be an issue.

Regarding the tdm chips, they only affect audio and plugins in protools, and would not have any effect on virtual instruments, which mostly use your computers CPU. However, they affect it indirectly because by taking the load off the CPU for audio and plugins, that frees up more power to be used by the virtual instruments.

[Shan]

Originally Posted by shutiri

Hello,

I'm thinking about upgrading my LE Digi002 to HD2 or HD3. I'm wondering about the pros/advantages of HD over LE, in our times of modern computers with great processing power :)

I mean, is there any sound quality difference between working at 96/24 in LE versus 96/24 in HD ?

On the other hand, since we're still slaves of the 4Gb on 32 bits, there's no difference between LE and HD Ram-wise, right ? My big ram demanding VIs (Trillian, BFD, Kontakt) will still be performing in a less than optimal manner... Or HD will take part of the load ? As far as I understand, the HD cards are just for processing, not for memory, am I right ?

Thank you for your advices,
Shutiri

HD will not sort out your RTAS VI issues. The cards in TDM handle the TDM mix engine, TDM plug-ins, I/O and delay compensation. RTAS is still RTAS. TDM and RTAS plug-ins null out. RTAS plug-ins have a lower latency than TDM plug-ins. Anywhere from 1 to 5 samples. RTAS plug-in instances far surpass TDM instances on an i7 verses HD7(using TDM only) and this is at a hardware buffer of 64. A H/W buffer of 64(32 on Mac) is under 5 ms round trip just like TDM hardware. HD 1 will give you only 48 tracks at 96k. HD 2 & 3 will give you 96 tracks at 96k. Pro Tools LE using the Complete Production Toolkit will give you 96 tracks at 96k. The important thing for MIDI in LE and HD though is the hardware buffer. The lowest H/W buffer setting in LE at 96k is 128. In HD it's over 256 which would make recording MIDI in a 96k session unusable for most. You will have just the same RTAS VI issues and more in HD.

Until the RTAS engine is sorted out, it's best to just sandbox your VI's and stream them into Pro Tools. Your VI's running separate from PT will perform better than running them "inside" Pro Tools. There are many ways to sandbox and stream the VI's. You can use an external app like REAPER or Vienna Ensemble PRO etc to achieve this. There are other ways to run your VI's independent from PT.

Shane

[sunburst79]

Originally Posted by shutiri

Hello,

I'm thinking about upgrading my LE Digi002 to HD2 or HD3. I'm wondering about the pros/advantages of HD over LE, in our times of modern computers with great processing power :)

I mean, is there any sound quality difference between working at 96/24 in LE versus 96/24 in HD ?

On the other hand, since we're still slaves of the 4Gb on 32 bits, there's no difference between LE and HD Ram-wise, right ? My big ram demanding VIs (Trillian, BFD, Kontakt) will still be performing in a less than optimal manner... Or HD will take part of the load ? As far as I understand, the HD cards are just for processing, not for memory, am I right ?

Thank you for your advices,
Shutiri

It might be FAR, FAR cheaper to look into VE Pro and host your VI's on a different machine running a 64bit OS. It's a system somewhat like ReWire but you can host your instruments on seperate 64 machine thats packed with RAM. I haven't tried it personally but orchestral VI users are raving about it. You plugs need to be VST, AU, or compatable with a few other formats. RTAS is not directly supported since it doesnt run outside of Pro Tools.

[TOM@METRO]

Having used both systems heavily over the years and experiencing the growth of Native power, I can conservatively offer, that for music production, TDM systems no longer have that clear advantage over Native systems. When you consider the power that's just around the corner with the new Intel 6 core processors this starts to become a no-brainer.

[Keybeeetsss]

Originally Posted by TOM@METRO

Having used both systems heavily over the years and experiencing the growth of Native power, I can conservatively offer, that for music production, TDM systems no longer have that clear advantage over Native systems. When you consider the power that's just around the corner with the new Intel 6 core processors this starts to become a no-brainer.

it was really a no brainer with 4core i7; with the 6core, its more like no thought...

[shutiri]

Thank you for all of this. I have some questions about these answers:

nst7:

The sound quality is determined by the A/D and D/A converters. The ones in the 002/003 are much lower quality than the 192 IO. But if you used a separate good quality converter into your 002/003, then this wouldn't be an issue.

What would be a good choice for these separate A/D and D/A converters ?

Shane: so, you recommend BY FAR to stay with LE and get a monster computer, is that right ?

The lowest H/W buffer setting in LE at 96k is 128

I think it's actually 64, ain't it ?

TDM and RTAS plug-ins null out.

What does this mean ? Sorry, I'm not native in english. It's just the same ? that's what you mean ?

i7 verses HD7

i7 PC will perform better thatn a HD7 ? wow....

Thanks!
Shutiri

[Shan]

Originally Posted by shutiri

TShane: so, you recommend BY FAR to stay with LE and get a monster computer, is that right ?

This depends on needs. You're obviously doing alot of MIDI production. I myself would stick with native.

Originally Posted by shutiri

I think it's actually 64, ain't it ?

No, it's 128 when recording at 96k in PT LE. HD is over 256 at 96k. At 44.1k/48k the H/W buffer can go as low as 64(32 on Mac) in native systems. Until PT 8, the lowest HD could ever go was 128. In order to even do 64 in PT 8 HD in 44.1k/48k sessions, you have to use the maximum number of voices which would be 48 Voices (1 DSP) or 96 voices (2 DSP). This of course can eat into valuable DSP on smaller systems etc.

Originally Posted by shutiri

What does this mean ? Sorry, I'm not native in english. It's just the same ? that's what you mean ?

If audio passing through 2 different plug-ins null, it's the same, no matter what math and algorithms are used under the hood to get there.

Originally Posted by shutiri

i7 PC will perform better thatn a HD7 ?

i7 PC can have more RTAS plug-in instances than it's TDM counterpart and this includes being at a buffer of 64. One Accel card can do 38 Dverbs. 256 total on an HD 7 system using all available DSP. Add delay compensation etc and it will be less than that. Native has caught up, surpassed, and now we have affordable 6 cores around the corner. At this point though, it doesn't matter as RTAS VI's is one of the poorest formats out there compared to everything else. Digi has commented many times on the forum that we will see RTAS improvements in the future. If your doing MIDI productions as you alluded to, stick with native and spend that 15+ grand on outboard that will maintain a high resale value 15 years from now. The solution for now is to sandbox and stream the VI's into Pro Tools. You'll be doing the same workaround on HD.

Shane

[JonnyGinese]

And with all that said... Shane uses a last generation quad core... and he hasn't maxed out his Complete Production Toolkit.

[Kempo]

Originally Posted by Shan

HD will not sort out your RTAS VI issues. The cards in TDM handle the TDM mix engine, TDM plug-ins, I/O and delay compensation. RTAS is still RTAS. TDM and RTAS plug-ins null out. RTAS plug-ins have a lower latency than TDM plug-ins. Anywhere from 1 to 5 samples. RTAS plug-in instances far surpass TDM instances on an i7 verses HD7(using TDM only) and this is at a hardware buffer of 64. A H/W buffer of 64(32 on Mac) is under 5 ms round trip just like TDM hardware. HD 1 will give you only 48 tracks at 96k. HD 2 & 3 will give you 96 tracks at 96k. Pro Tools LE using the Complete Production Toolkit will give you 96 tracks at 96k. The important thing for MIDI in LE and HD though is the hardware buffer. The lowest H/W buffer setting in LE at 96k is 128. In HD it's over 256 which would make recording MIDI in a 96k session unusable for most. You will have just the same RTAS VI issues and more in HD.

Until the RTAS engine is sorted out, it's best to just sandbox your VI's and stream them into Pro Tools. Your VI's running separate from PT will perform better than running them "inside" Pro Tools. There are many ways to sandbox and stream the VI's. You can use an external app like REAPER or Vienna Ensemble PRO etc to achieve this. There are other ways to run your VI's independent from PT.

Shane

Hi Shan,
the only thing make me sad with my PTLE, is the 32 mono internal bus limit.
That's very limiting if you build a complex send/returns and submix environment.

And with MPTK you obtain 48 stereo or 96 mono at 96 khz, the same with CPTK.
Is the same with HD1?