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  #21  
Old 06-24-2015, 05:03 PM
Kyle Splittgerber's Avatar
Kyle Splittgerber Kyle Splittgerber is offline
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Default Re: S3 AVB interface LATENCY is a problem..

Hey Guys,

The latency figures being mentioned sound pretty close to what I'd expect at 128. However, I am surprised PT12 is only letting you set the buffer to 128 samples minimum. I am going to look into why this is the case. I'd expect at least an option for 64.

Currently, there is no Direct Monitoring path for S3 as some of you have called out. But, we are planning to add this in the future and provide more routing freedom with the I/O.

The question came up regarding why 48V is enabled when choosing "In 1-2" for the monitor input. This is because we are essentially turning those mic inputs into line inputs (for monitor inputs) and we don't want anyone accidentally engaging 48V and risking damage to attached gear. For use as a standalone mic preamp I can see how this is a limitation though. We could provide an override function here - maybe SHIFT + In (48V) to engage 48V? Pad is also auto engaged because its now a line input. But, we could do SHIFT + Sel to override that as well. Thoughts?

Regarding specs - overall excellent performance . See p270:
http://akmedia.digidesign.com/suppor...uide_83069.pdf

Hopefully, this info helps. We're aware that there are improvements to make to the I/O. What you're looking at now is really v1 which was intended to be basic audio interface with a highly usable monitoring section. But, please post any suggestions you have for the S3 I/O on the S3 Ideascale page! I'd love to hear them.

Thanks,
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  #22  
Old 06-24-2015, 11:13 PM
kriszuki kriszuki is offline
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Default Re: S3 AVB interface LATENCY is a problem..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Splittgerber View Post
Hey Guys,

The latency figures being mentioned sound pretty close to what I'd expect at 128. However, I am surprised PT12 is only letting you set the buffer to 128 samples minimum. I am going to look into why this is the case. I'd expect at least an option for 64.

Currently, there is no Direct Monitoring path for S3 as some of you have called out. But, we are planning to add this in the future and provide more routing freedom with the I/O.

The question came up regarding why 48V is enabled when choosing "In 1-2" for the monitor input. This is because we are essentially turning those mic inputs into line inputs (for monitor inputs) and we don't want anyone accidentally engaging 48V and risking damage to attached gear. For use as a standalone mic preamp I can see how this is a limitation though. We could provide an override function here - maybe SHIFT + In (48V) to engage 48V? Pad is also auto engaged because its now a line input. But, we could do SHIFT + Sel to override that as well. Thoughts?

Regarding specs - overall excellent performance . See p270:
http://akmedia.digidesign.com/suppor...uide_83069.pdf

Hopefully, this info helps. We're aware that there are improvements to make to the I/O. What you're looking at now is really v1 which was intended to be basic audio interface with a highly usable monitoring section. But, please post any suggestions you have for the S3 I/O on the S3 Ideascale page! I'd love to hear them.

Thanks,
Thanks Kyle for replying. As a new S3 owner this news gives me hope! I have to say using the control surface is brilliant for getting more creative and fluent mixing and making music with PT. The spec chart you have provided a link to is really useful, be great to see it in the S3 manual and most importantly on the product information section on the website which is where we all refer to when looking to buy gear like this.

I will make some suggestions in the ideascale.

These changes would make the S3 a winner.

An option for lower buffer sizes in PT
Adding direct monitoring
Sample rates supported between 44.1khz to 192khz

Kyle do you have any idea about timescale for changes?

Regarding assigning mic inputs. I can see why the auto disable of 48v and adding a pad was part of the original S3l design. On gigs this could be a nightmare. The reason I was asking about this was due to me trying to find a workaround for direct monitoring of mic inputs in a tracking setup. eg I could buy a second avb audio interface (with direct dsp low latency monitoring) for headphone monitoring (Motu monitor8) and send the mic inputs into that when tracking. I know that most interfaces have mic amps so why not use them, but some don't (MOTU monitor 8 doesnt) and I thought it would be a good use of the S3s resources and save me buying two mic amps.

Other issues I have found on using the S3 that Im concerned with -

1. Audio dropouts and clicks on playback. This is intermittent but a regular occurrence. I know that this could be an issue to do with my setup. But this only happens with S3 not with my other audio interface - steinberg mr813x (I cant use this comprehensively anymore with Yosemite- drivers will not be updated according to Steinberg)

2. When assigning a control to an encoder there is a very small lag, not terrible but enough of a lag to force me to slow down. eg assign a specific send to channel encoder and it is not instantaneously instantiated, start turning the knob too quickly and it doesn't respond.
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  #23  
Old 06-25-2015, 03:35 AM
LukeHoward LukeHoward is offline
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Default Re: S3 AVB interface LATENCY is a problem..

Quote:
Originally Posted by kriszuki View Post
\
1. Audio dropouts and clicks on playback. This is intermittent but a regular occurrence. I know that this could be an issue to do with my setup. But this only happens with S3 not with my other audio interface - steinberg mr813x (I cant use this comprehensively anymore with Yosemite- drivers will not be updated according to Steinberg)
Yeah, I also see this, although I am running at 96k (which is not supported).

Also has anyone else noticed the plastic peeling off from the sides of the console?
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  #24  
Old 06-25-2015, 03:53 AM
kriszuki kriszuki is offline
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Default Re: S3 AVB interface LATENCY is a problem..

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Originally Posted by LukeHoward View Post
Yeah, I also see this, although I am running at 96k (which is not supported).

Also has anyone else noticed the plastic peeling off from the sides of the console?
Annoying innit. dropouts always make me skip a heart beat! Makes me think Ive made a bad edit or that audio is corrupted or the system is about to crash...

peeling sides, mine is a week old so thankfully not yet!! Hope you can get it sorted.

please vote for full sample rate support and others

http://protools.ideascale.com/a/idea...ampaigns/14999
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  #25  
Old 06-25-2015, 06:05 AM
LukeHoward LukeHoward is offline
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Default Re: S3 AVB interface LATENCY is a problem..

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Originally Posted by kriszuki View Post
Annoying innit. dropouts always make me skip a heart beat! Makes me think Ive made a bad edit or that audio is corrupted or the system is about to crash...
I'm used to it now (and anyway at least on my laptop, Pro Tools often drops out for other reasons – e.g. not enough CPU). I'm not sure if I would trust it if I wasn't working by myself. (It might be something to do with the Apple AVB drivers too; I notice coreaudiod is often chewing up a lot of CPU when I'm using it.)

Quote:
peeling sides, mine is a week old so thankfully not yet!! Hope you can get it sorted.
Yeah, it might be an artefact of it rubbing against the side of my suitcase when traveling (although it was bubble wrapped several times). At least it's not as bad as the black paint on the ProControl. It still works, which is what matters, although it definitely looked nicer when it was shop fresh!

Quote:
please vote for full sample rate support and others

http://protools.ideascale.com/a/idea...ampaigns/14999
Thanks, I'll take a look. One thing I noticed is that it does appear to only advertise 48k/96k. I don't care about 96k but it would be nice if it supported 44.1/88.1.
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  #26  
Old 06-25-2015, 08:42 AM
LukeHoward LukeHoward is offline
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Default Re: S3 AVB interface LATENCY is a problem..

So is the S3 actually usable for tracking? I'm doing some location recording tomorrow (I need to hear myself play) and I'm curious whether to give it a go or hire a 003. I guess it probably sounds better than the 003 but not if you can't play in time!
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  #27  
Old 06-25-2015, 09:03 AM
kriszuki kriszuki is offline
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Default Re: S3 AVB interface LATENCY is a problem..

Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeHoward View Post
So is the S3 actually usable for tracking? I'm doing some location recording tomorrow (I need to hear myself play) and I'm curious whether to give it a go or hire a 003. I guess it probably sounds better than the 003 but not if you can't play in time!
Well my first impression was that the latency was not at all ideal, so if it is an important session I would not be inclined to use it. Plug a mic into input 1 and route to PT and listen back through the headphones, and check it for yourself. If you are at 96khz then it might be better.\


Regarding dropouts and pops, I have been mixing this afternoon and I got an awful pop and dropout when I was in play and dragged the curser back to an earlier point in the timeline, this was really BAD. I have very large speakers and the popping sound was deafening, my speakers stopped working (not sure if this was because of the S3 or the power amp and speaker limiters kicking in) but not good at all. I have rebooted and all working again. But that was loud and could have damaged my speakers and ears.

The popping was akin to switching on and off a mixer whilst still having your speakers and power amp switched on.

Any ideas why this happened?
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  #28  
Old 06-25-2015, 09:09 AM
LukeHoward LukeHoward is offline
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Default Re: S3 AVB interface LATENCY is a problem..

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Originally Posted by kriszuki View Post
Regarding dropouts and pops, I have been mixing this afternoon and I got an awful pop and dropout when I was in play and dragged the curser back to an earlier point in the timeline, this was really BAD. I have very large speakers and the popping sound was deafening, my speakers stopped working (not sure if this was because of the S3 or the power amp and speaker limiters kicking in) but not good at all. I have rebooted and all working again. But that was loud and could have damaged my speakers and ears.

The popping was akin to switching on and off a mixer whilst still having your speakers and power amp switched on.

Any ideas why this happened?
Well, no is the short answer but, I think it's just the stability of the built-in AVB CoreAudio drivers in OS X. I'm pretty sure that Pro Tools just uses CoreAudio to talk to the S3, as is doesn't hog the device from other CoreAudio clients. (Maybe there are some checks to see if it's an Avid AVB device or not.)

Anyway, good luck and look after your ears. And thanks for your advice, maybe I should hire an interface for this session.
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  #29  
Old 06-25-2015, 01:10 PM
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V5V V5V is offline
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Default Re: S3 AVB interface LATENCY is a problem..

Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeHoward View Post
So is the S3 actually usable for tracking? I'm doing some location recording tomorrow (I need to hear myself play) and I'm curious whether to give it a go or hire a 003. I guess it probably sounds better than the 003 but not if you can't play in time!
If the total delay is ~8ms, that's the equivalent of playing along with someone who is sitting about 8 feet away. Seems plenty good enough for musical timing to me, but I'm not a very good musician! Wouldn't even the best human musician's performance have timing variations of more than 8ms playing solo?

The problem isn't timing, it's weird phasing in the cans when tracking vocals. The singer hears her/his own voice "live" through his/her head, then again, slightly delayed, through the cans. That causes a phase-shifting effect. Some people don't care (or even seem to notice) while others are totally thrown off by it.

Easily overcome by using even the most basic analog mixer to create a real-time headphone mix.
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  #30  
Old 06-25-2015, 03:42 PM
kriszuki kriszuki is offline
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Default Re: S3 AVB interface LATENCY is a problem..

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Originally Posted by V5V View Post
If the total delay is ~8ms, that's the equivalent of playing along with someone who is sitting about 8 feet away. Seems plenty good enough for musical timing to me, but I'm not a very good musician! Wouldn't even the best human musician's performance have timing variations of more than 8ms playing solo?

The problem isn't timing, it's weird phasing in the cans when tracking vocals. The singer hears her/his own voice "live" through his/her head, then again, slightly delayed, through the cans. That causes a phase-shifting effect. Some people don't care (or even seem to notice) while others are totally thrown off by it.

Easily overcome by using even the most basic analog mixer to create a real-time headphone mix.
Yes, I agree with this, the phasing is not good to work with if you are singing, and if you play anything that is percussive you do hear/perceive a delay. I am a musician and really value the quality of these things, after all what is playing music when you are hearing yourself in a out of phase and uncomfortable manner. lame basically!

It is overcome by an analog mixer, but most audio interfaces of today are designed to replace the need for an analog mixer, ie with unnoticeable latencies and good quality preamps etc, and they are surpassing them with features such as dsp reverbs, compressors, digital recall etc.

What I am saying really is that the S3 is advertised as having an audio interface and I think it should work like most modern designed ones do. It doesn t have to be the lowest latency or the most feature rich, just has to work well. For £4k it really should.

It sounds like the designers are making efforts to make it work, but how long will it take to sort it out?
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