Updating HD|3 to HD Native

[jaminjamesp]

Hello all,

I have been tasked by the studio owner I work for to do the research into upgrading his Pro Tools rig. Currently we're on HD|3 running PT8, on a 2010 8 core Mac Pro. Sessions are crashing regularly, everything is sluggish, we're constantly printing auxes and bouncing down, and about twice a day after a crash, we'll have to remove the HD card and pop it back in before the computer will power back up. Time to upgrade.

I've decided the best rout is going to be updating the computer, getting a Native PCIe card, Updating the OS to 10.8, and upgrading to PTHD 10.

As far as computer upgrades go I'm thinking upgrading to dual 2.93GHz 6 core CPUs from OWC http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/turnk...Mac_Pro_2010_2
as well as a 1TB Samsung 850 Pro SSD system drive and obviously the OS.
That rings in at about $1750.00

The Native card can be found on eBay open box for between $1200-1500.00
The Upgrade to PT10 HD is $1500.00

Total Cost: $4400-$4700

We rarely track bands live, so the most inputs used while tracking would be for drums, so never more than 16. Once in a blue moon we'll use a VST. Sessions get large fast, and can be fairly plugin intensive. A large majority of the plugins we use most are native, and most of those don't even have AAX DSP upgrades available now, or ever. So HDX seems pretty much out of the question without a major investment that we just can't afford right now.

Am I missing anything here? The benchmark numbers on the CPU upgrade are pretty impressive: http://browser.primatelabs.com/mac-benchmarks
Avid lists those specific CPUs as supported, so I'm guessing I wouldn't run in to any problems there...

[JFreak]

Originally Posted by jaminjamesp

If we go Native and stay with PT10, from what I've read we can still use the 192. With HDX we'd be buying new I/O, is that correct?

You can still use your old 192 interface(s) but it won't be supported past PT10 -- however, supported and working are not necessarily different things.

I myself do not have any Avid-branded new purple/gray interfaces but I am a happy camper on my mobile PT11 HDN rig. I also have a 3rd party Apogee Rosetta w/XHD card (built in 2003 or so) that works very well with HDN so there's nothing to worry about the interfaces as far as I know.

It seems to me that you are first and foremost in a dire need of a new computer. So buy the best new iTrashcan Mac Pro that you can afford and jump into the HDN | ThunderBolt bandwagon. You mentioned that a lot of Waves plugins are used, which means you will never get a lot of juice out of a HDX system because Waves decided to not create AAX-DSP version of their plugins so all of those would be Native anyway.

In other words, go for the latest computer and operating system and leave the TDM/RTAS world behind.

[Craig F]

bad HD cards are usually show stoppers, nothing works (Avid still repairs these cards)
I would suspect the system drive just needs to be rebuilt, that said I never liked PT 8 very well

2010 is that a 4.1 or a 5.1? ether way not a bad machines

I'd get a SSD for a new system drive > get OSX 10.8 & PT10 HD (let's you get into Disk Cache) > build a new system > clone it for backup
see if that helps out

Then I would start looking for extra HD cards and an expansion chassis and getting up to a HD5 or 6 rig

This keeps from needing to look at translating the TDM/RTAS plugs to AAX 64 plugs

If you go the new computer rout, you will be forced into 11 and all new plug-ins in the AAX format. This should be eyed long term.

[jaminjamesp]

Originally Posted by Craig F

If you go the new computer rout, you will be forced into 11 and all new plug-ins in the AAX format. This should be eyed long term.

I'm guessing this is because of operating systems on the new Mac Pros? Sorry if thats a dumb question, this kind of thing is not my forte, definitely learning as i go.

This option sounds cheaper than going HD Native. With our current computer, would HD Native give us any performance/stability increase?

Also, I was looking at these computers. http://tinyurl.com/ojp9mb8

Spoke to the guy who builds them and said he builds for lots of studio guys, and guaranteed compatibility with all Avid stuff, with a money back guarantee and shipping included. He said this computer would run about 15% slower than a new 12 core, at a small fraction of the price. This computer with a new HD card (if it is faulty) with SSD system drive, PT10 HD and OS X 10.8
seems like it could be a pretty strong option.

EDIT:Just saw that the HD upgrade to 10 is $1500. Thats insane.

[propower]

So many variables I deleted my first reply....

There is nothing at all wrong with an HD3 and a good MacPro (4,1 or better). Add an SSD OS drive and its a totally functional TDM environment. You have to live with PT10 as the last release and some earlier Mac OS. Add a chassis and more cards - still nothing wrong.

The nMP may not be any "faster" than an old one but it is a killer machine. I run the Hex and for HDN - its great. But changing to a modern machine, current PT and Mac OS is a big commitment. AAX for all your plug ins - Thunderbolt Storage - and external Chassis if you want Cards.

How you prioritize where this particular studio install is headed will help guide what is the right move (they all cost $$$).

Nothing wrong with modernizing your current machine (SSD especially) and continuing with TDM for many years.

Nothing wrong with HDN and a nMP (though IMO native IS different than DSP cards! It may or may not do what you want!)

Given your Waves investment - even SoundGrid is an interesting possibility.

How would you prioritize your top 3 wishes for the new systems abilities? What kind of budget are we talking about too....

[jaminjamesp]

Originally Posted by Craig F

Then I would start looking for extra HD cards and an expansion chassis and getting up to a HD5 or 6 rig

One more question, is there a reputable source out there for buying HD cards? We've gotten burned twice buying faulty cards on eBay.

[jaminjamesp]

Originally Posted by propower

So many variables I deleted my first reply....

There is nothing at all wrong with an HD3 and a good MacPro (4,1 or better). Add an SSD OS drive and its a totally functional TDM environment. You have to live with PT10 as the last release and some earlier Mac OS.

The nMP may not be any "faster" than an old one but it is a killer machine. I run the Hex and for HDN - its great. But changing to a modern machine, current PT and Mac OS is a big commitment. AAX for all your plug ins - Thunderbolt Storage - and external Chassis if you want Cards.

How you prioritize where this particular studio install is headed will help guide what is the right move (they all cost $$$).

Nothing wrong with modernizing your current machine (SSD especially) and continuing with TDM for many years.

Nothing wrong with HDN and a nMP (though IMO native IS different than DSP cards! It may or may not do what you want!)

Given your Waves investment - even SoundGrid is an interesting possibility.

How would you prioritize your top 3 wishes for the new systems abilities? What kind of budget are we talking about too....

Thanks for the reply!

Top 3 Wishes are...

1. Stability and Speed
2. Stability and Speed
3. Stability and speed



Thats really all we're looking for. There are some features that I have become quite spoiled with in 11, which I have on my personal rig. But in reality, if everything was running smoothly on the current system, we wouldn't be upgrading. As it is, we'll have to restart about 5 times a day, and 2 of those restarts involve pulling out the HD card from the chassis and popping it back in, otherwise the computer wont even power up. Something is obviously wonky with the card or the chassis.

Now that I think of it, we really don't instantiate TDM plugins very often. I would say 60% of what we use is native. I think part of this is because the problems with the card. If I remember correctly too many TDM plugins causes lots of crashes. The current PT rig is kind of like the pill popping aunt who no one mentions at family gatherings. She's kind of functional but bringing it up only causes other parties to get agitated. Every time I ask why aren't we using TDM plugins I get a kind of half mumbled response about the cards not working right, and thats that. When I bring up getting a new system I get glared at.

Also I mentioned this is an earlier post but you may not have seen it. I'm not much of a computer guy, but I did find this guy who rebuilds these older Mac Pros http://tinyurl.com/ojp9mb8 He said its about 15% slower that a current 12 core. Any thoughts on that build?

Another poster suggested just getting more cards, upgrading the computer, and updating to PT10 HD. This seems like it could be a viable option, but we've been burned buying faulty cards on eBay before. There isn't like a secret new old stock of HD cards is there??

[propower]

FWIW I see no reason that a PT10 MacPro 4,1 or 5,1 with HD3+ should't be a rock solid and reasonably fast system. Comparing Geekbench is one thing but I stand behind the nMP as being next level "faster" as a system at everything (IMO of course) - I used to run HD2 on a MP Nehalem quad core up to PT9. Never was any problems (sold it way too soon in hindsight!). I can also tell you a nMP Hex and HDN Thunderbolt - PT11 - killer system - period.

Again - IMO - the reasons to stick with a TDM system (or HDX) in todays world would be one or many of these ...
- the Need for guaranteed low latency tracking through plugins at any stage of a project from initial tracks to final overdubs
- The need for more than 64 simultaneous inputs (needs HD or HDX) Note: The need for more than 32 simultaneous inputs takes HDN
- the reason to stick TDM over HDX would be most likely due to dependence on tracking in low latency through plugins that are not AAX64 (like Waves - like Autotune - like SoundToys etc...) -- though cost is another popular reason.

The 12 core dual Westmere MacPro is a great machine! 32000 Geekbench is a beast of a score too. But on the downside - $2500 is significant $$$ to put on someones modded computer. It is also likely at least 5 years old. Slower Ram, SATA II, USB 2, no Thunderbolt etc... So investing in this can be a good move but it definitely locks you into a lot of things (especially if all your slots have cards in them). Me personally - I never go backwards on computers. It is the cornerstone of everything I do and I buy the biggest, baddest, newest I can afford when I do it. Today - the machine I am using never breaks a sweat - ever! I view it as "Digital headroom". A new computer is not even remotely in my thinking for years. But that's me!

So the first choice is do you NEED a DSP system or will Native work for you?

And maybe more important - what are you willing to spend. I estimate it to be at least $6K (and maybe a lot more!) to put you into a modern HD Native system - Computer - ProTools - HD Native card or TB box - TB storage? - plugin updates etc. Hot rodding your MacPro or getting a 5,1 and getting AVID to repair your cards - way cheaper. HDX - way more. SoundGrid yet another option - as is moving to an Apollo or host of other great Native interfaces with ProTools...

ebay sellers I have used a lot are (excellent to deal with)
audiodeluxe
altomusic

[Craig F]

I concur with propwer.

Really sounds like you need a computer savvy engineer to go through the rig and tune it up.

I'm skeptical of the ebay guy, a 5.1 new has 1 DVI and 2 Display Ports on the card, and more memory than 512MB if I remember correctly, and the MoBo has 2 NICs at 1Gb/s each so why an extra network card.
OK it's 4.1 that has been hot-rodded to a semi 5.1, I would defiantly avoid it.

As to trusted places to get cards, no. In the Buy and Sell here and ebay, look for some one that has a return if not working guarantee. RSPE or Vintage King are both known to sand behind their sales of used gear.
Or local and see them working before they come out of the machine.

A Samsung 850 PRO SSD, adapter plate, OSX 10.8, and PT 10 HD is about 2 grand

[jaminjamesp]

Originally Posted by Craig F

I'm skeptical of the ebay guy, a 5.1 new has 1 DVI and 2 Display Ports on the card, and more memory than 512MB if I remember correctly, and the MoBo has 2 NICs at 1Gb/s each so why an extra network card.
OK it's 4.1 that has been hot-rodded to a semi 5.1, I would defiantly avoid it.

I too am a little skeptical of the eBay seller. But, OWC has a CPU upgrade program in which you send in your CPU tray and they upgrade your CPU.

http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/turnk...Mac_Pro_2010_2

The benchmarks for upgrading to dual 2.93GHz 6 core CPUs are pretty impressive. You can see them here http://browser.primatelabs.com/mac-benchmarks

A 12 core 2010 Mac Pro is performing just under a new 12 core Mac Pro

Thats an $1100 Upgrade. Is there any reason to think this would in any way not be compatible with PT?

Considering that amount of native plugins we use (all the Waves stuff is native, as well as Sound Toys, McDSP, and several others that get used most) and the cost of upgrading to HDX both in plugins and hardware, it seems that Native is going to be our best option.

This is what I am leaning towards presenting the studio owner as of now:

- OWC upgrade to two x 2.93GHz 6-Core 'Westmere' (Intel X5670, 12-Cores, QPI: 6.4GT/s) - $1100.00

- 1TB Samsung 850 Pro SSD system drive - $629.00

- HD Native PCIe Card - $1200-$1500.00 used or open box on eBay

- Pro Tools 10HD - $1500.00

- Peripherals as needed

It looks for $4400-$4700.00 we can really make a large improvement in our current system.

Anything I'm missing here? Any thoughts on this?

EDIT: As far as Avid compatibility goes, Avid says "Mac Pro "Westmere"(all models, all speeds)" are supported. I don't see any reason why the OWC upgrade wouldn't work just fine...