So what's the chances of another Expansion pack in the future

[Random Dude]

I just sold my Ultra and miss it everyday. It isn't a debitating thing or anything, but it was great. Just in case someone is interested I took a hit on it, I only got $1800 for it. Considering it was over a year old and I paid just a bit over that I think that the paperweight argument is a bit weak. The only reason I sold was because of the IR support in the AxeFXII. If it sounded exactly the same and worked exactly the same as the Standard and just had the improved IR stuff it would still be worth the extra money to me.

I don't want to turn this into a whole AxeFX thing here, but it doesn't fall into the same category as most of the other devices on the market for several reasons:

1. Great sound doesn't become bad. If you haven't played an AxeFX then you are really missing out IMHO. It may not be for you, but until you've spent time with it and really dug into it then it's no different than someone playing an 11R for ten minutes or watching a youtube video and saying that it sucks.

2. There just aren't that many of them out there. This isn't a blister pack, guitar center item and while it's gotten some great press I would bet that there are less AxeFX Standard and Ultra sales TOTAL since the day it was released than Line6 POD HD500's on the first day that it was on store shelves. Once the POD SuperHD1000 comes out there will be millions of HD500's out there to resell, if you look on e-Bay even at it's peak of panic sales there were never more than 40 of them and it's already dwindled back into the teens.

3. The Ultra was discontinued because he had reached a point that he couldn't improve upon it any further and the AxeFXII was born from a wish list created by owners that went back several years. Yes there are advantages to the AxeFXII, but where a lot of products that become legacy are bug riddled or never lived up to the hype the Ultra in particular had evolved into something that surpassed it's original design. I won't quote everything that it does here because I don't have an hour, but let's just say that it's one of the only devices I've seen out there in years that exceeded the hype and was a completely functioning unit.

That's enough, I don't want to come off like a bunch of other fanatical jerks that are out there. This isn't meant to be confrontational and while it seems very fact based to me it's obviously a lot of perception and opinion. But I spent a lot of time going through the reasoning as to why the AxeFX was selling for more than it's original price in many cases and these were the main reasons I could come up with. I think that the price that I got for mine, weeks after the announcement of the AxeFXII kind of support my view.

[blewis]

As a standalone unit, the 11R will work just as well as it does today until it breaks and you can't get it repaired or it's cost prohibitive to repair.

IF you depend on ProTools integration for editing your rigs, you're exposed to Pro Tools updates and dropped versions eventually.

IF they come up with a standalone sometime in the future, you're exposed to your computer's OS changes and Avid's eventual cutoff for support for a new OS. (I've got a Nord Modular synth that is totally dependent on a computer host for its editor so I've been through this).

IF they come up with user IRs, eventually your ProTools dependence or your standalone editor's OS dependence will force you to have a static set of user IRs.

But with all that said, it'll still function standalone just like it does today until it breaks. Your model of your Blackface Deluxe isn't going to sound any different than it does today if the 11R II comes out or if Avid just says they're never doing anything else for the 11R ever again.

[moff]

Kind of reminds me of my Dad's advice about buying a suit: Forget this year's fashion, long jacket/short jacket, wide/narrow lapel, just buy a timeless cut and it will be usable for the rest of your life.

Same idea goes for digital vs Fender or Marshall. Right now, we're seeing, as you said, a renaissance for rack gear, it's the "fashion". But those old Twins and Plexis are still going strong, and will be the gold standard forever. And you probably don't have to worry about getting service for them. There was rack stuff in the '80s, like the old ADA Preamp, all trying to emulate tube amps, but lots of us just stayed with the real deal.

[moff]

Originally Posted by blewis

As a standalone unit, the 11R will work just as well as it does today until it breaks and you can't get it repaired or it's cost prohibitive to repair.

IF you depend on ProTools integration for editing your rigs, you're exposed to Pro Tools updates and dropped versions eventually.

IF they come up with a standalone sometime in the future, you're exposed to your computer's OS changes and Avid's eventual cutoff for support for a new OS. (I've got a Nord Modular synth that is totally dependent on a computer host for its editor so I've been through this).

IF they come up with user IRs, eventually your ProTools dependence or your standalone editor's OS dependence will force you to have a static set of user IRs.

But with all that said, it'll still function standalone just like it does today until it breaks. Your model of your Blackface Deluxe isn't going to sound any different than it does today if the 11R II comes out or if Avid just says they're never doing anything else for the 11R ever again.

True. But think of it this way: my old Flextone II still works too. It still sounds like it did new. It used to be my go-to gig amp, now I wouldn't think of it. Yes, it's still usable until I can no longer get it fixed, but it won't get used. The models used to sound "just like" a Deluxe/Twin/Marshall, now not so much... OTOH, you'll probably never have to worry about whether you can get that old tube amp fixed.

[moff]

Perhaps I should be more clear... I'm not cutting either unit down, just pointing out that all digital devices, including the AxeFX and the 11R WILL eventually become paperweights, ie not desirable, obsolete, whatever you want to call it, given time. An original AxeFX still has some value because it's only recently been updated, but regardless of the quality, I'll pretty much guarantee that in 10 years, an original will have little or no value (except maybe to a collector).

Think of it like a computer. What's today's value of a computer with 16 mb of ram, A 1gb hard drive, and a Pentium III processor? It was state of the art when it came out 10 years ago or so, and probably cost a couple of grand. Worth maybe $20 today.

Traditional amps OTOH, particularly "industry standards" like Fender Twins/Deluxes and Marshall Plexis/JCMs, have always retained their value.

Anyway, my original statement was that despite the fact that I know digital = a never-ending upgrade cycle, I'm all over it...

[Vercingetorix]

Originally Posted by moff

Traditional amps OTOH, particularly "industry standards" like Fender Twins/Deluxes and Marshall Plexis/JCMs, have always retained their value.

Well, you won't get any disagreement from me.

And, I love my 11R, perhaps a little too much than I ought to .

And to Random_Dude how can I miss what I never had. There are no Axe FX units where I live. Nobody is retailing them where I live, I would have to travel over 3,000 km's and hope they have one in stock when I get there, about a week later, just to try one out. And I don't think the modelling of the Axe FX standard/ultra is as good as the 11R. So far it's gone thru 11 iterations just to get the modelling up to scratch. 11R had it day one. I read that after some iterations Axe FX users had to revisit their presets because the difference between the modelling was night and day. Didn't need that hassle. Do I need all those amp models, no. Do I need vocoder and all that other waffle and FX, no. And I must be insane because I tried out IR's and I think it's highly over-rated so do I want that feature - no.

The standard/Ultra was dismissed as an option immediately after I found out there was no interface or DAW included. Hooking up the 11R and recording was a doodle. Not to mention that it would've taken 2/3 years of saving to get the Axe. No I didn't need that hassle either.

So what exactly am I missing out on - tell me I really, really want to know .

And as for your 3 points what a load of rubbish!!!

[blewis]

And as for your 3 points what a load of rubbish!!!

Too harsh IMO.

The guy did say:

This isn't meant to be confrontational and while it seems very fact based to me it's obviously a lot of perception and opinion.

The two of your are just stating why your boxes work best for you. Verc, your choices are very pragmatic. I'm sure Random Dude would support your choice given your situation.

Since his focus appears to be "sound quality" - as in good sound doesn't go out of style, I think the only critique I'd give him is that the Axe's lack of a USB interface will go out of style as more and more modelers add that USB.

But, if the focus is really on how the Axe sounds - say for live use - then some users might not care about ever interfacing with a computer. After all, you can't hook up your JCM800 to a computer can you?

The thing I really like about the 11R is the front panel. There will be a time when connecting it to a computer won't be an option. The front panel works great for editing. I've used the front panel way more than the ProTools GUI.

[Random Dude]

Yeah it's clearly different needs.

What I prefer in terms of the AxeFX was the fact that I didn't HAVE to use a specific DAW in order to just edit/import/export presets. Yes the USB thing is handy and is why they added it to the AxeFXII, but with a good USB MIDI interface it worked with zero issues.

As for the quality; that's subjective. I was one of the ones that was blown away by the most recent firmware that came out and yes it cleared up some issues, but those issues weren't really noticeable or unmanageable prior to the update. It was mostly stuff that was taken care of with EQ settings.

I also agree that I didn't need all of those amps, because after a year of owning it I never even got through all of them to be honest. But what I did find was that there was more variety between amp models and the dynamics were better than the 11R in terms of responding to pickup volume. The 11R is very good at it, the AxeFX was great at it.

The ability to use custom IR's inside of the box is huge because as you probably know the cabinet makes up a huge portion of the sound. 11R has a nice set of cabs, but the ability to create custom IR's and then load them up is great. The ability to have parallel effects and all kinds of mix controls for everything can't be overstated. I like the effects inside of 11R, but there is a lot more going on in the AxeFX than the pitch stuff that is missing in 11R.

What I miss the most though is the trainwreck sim. It's the best amp sim on any device I've ever played through hands down. It isn't for everyone, but for ME it was my go to. At the end of the day that's what it comes down; can the device deliver what you need? The AxeFX could do it every time, the 11R is more about dialing in something that sounds good, but isn't necessarily my ideal tone. That may be different for someone else and that's fine.

Another huge advantage was the MIDI control as a whole. If you could imagine it and configure it you could do it. All the tone and sound stuff can be argued with no real answer that fits everyone, but the MIDI stuff IMHO can't be disputed. You can be as simple or as complex as you want and it worked flawlessly. And while the 11R is pretty quick with switching patches I never felt like there was any delay with the AxeFX. It's not a huge issue, but it makes you feel nice.

[Vercingetorix]

Originally Posted by blewis

Too harsh IMO.

Yes, it probably was too harsh but he did say, one Point 1, "If you haven't played an AxeFX then you are really missing out".

And Fractal Fanboys tend to set me off at the best of times, well I haven't tried out an AxeFx, will not try an AxeFX and never will try out an Axe FX unless and here is the kicker, unless, he is willing to ship out his unit to my country and associated paraphanalia to hook it up to my computer, and put his money where his mouth is. Otherwise, I will not swallow any more of this "missing out" nonsense.

First, we had Infiltrator, then Scott Peterson head acolyte and forum moderator over at Fractal, and now this Random_Dude all starting up threads over here.

Yes, yes, yes, you are completely right that was too harsh as well. So, ok, I'll put Random_Dude in my ignore list as well and then we'll get along just fine.

[drokken2]

Vercingetorix the original post was:

"I'm new here so I'm just wondering if this is a one and done type deal with EXRP or if we can expect more updates and additional stuff in the future.

And I am starting to dig this thing more everyday. "

This thread has gotten WAY off topic...

Let's try to keep our cool and dignity while we're at it