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  #1  
Old 11-30-2001, 02:36 AM
Erik Braund Erik Braund is offline
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Default Drum Overhead Miking?

Hi! I have been reading these boards for about a year, and i finally got my 001 setup with a G4. Anyway, i am having trouble with my overhead mics on my drums. I am using two Shure SM81's. I want to get a two distinctly seperate tracks.. On with the Hi-hats and the crash panned to the left, and one with the other crash and the ride panned to the right. MY Problem is, i am getting quite a bit of HI-Hats in my Ride mic.

I have the mics set about 7.5' off the ground pointing straight down at the cymbals.

Have any of you found a better way?

i also use a beta 57 on the snare, Senn 421's on the toms and a shure beta 52 on the kick. Any miking tips on those would be greatly appreciated, but i have managed to get pretty good sounds out of them.

Thanks for all your help!!
-Erik Braund http://www.jebonline.com http://www.theromancandles.com
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  #2  
Old 11-30-2001, 05:44 AM
QuikDraw QuikDraw is offline
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Default Re: Drum Overhead Miking?

If you visualise the cardioid pattern of the SM81 mics you'll see that pointing them straight down is not going to yield a distinctively stereo signal. There's not much rejection off the sides of those mics. You need to point the mics in the direction you want them to hear.

You should probably try what is known as an XY configuration for your OH mics. Both mics will be over the approximate center of the drumkit almost touching each other. The mic that is on the Ride Cymbal side of the kit will actually be pointed towards the Hi-Hat and vice versa. The mics will be angled about 90 degrees to each other. Now if you visualise the pickup pattern of the mics you'll see that each mic will see a significantly different signal. This is probably the most popular configuration for overheads. Since both mics are in almost the same physical location it minimizes phase problems.

I've also had success with more distant mic'ing. Place each mic 5 or 6 feet either in front or behind the kit and point each one towards the physical location that you would like to be panned strongest in the L-R mix. This setup also yields good stereo separation, but you're more likely to run into phase problems due to the physical distance between the two mics.

Experiment with the mic placement until you get it just right. You want the overheads to do a good job of picking up the whole kit. They are the heart of your drum sound. The close mics on the rest of the kit only support the mix you have in the overheads.

Mike
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  #3  
Old 12-02-2001, 12:36 AM
gerax gerax is offline
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Default Re: Drum Overhead Miking?

I agree, but keep in mind that since the over heads (just as their name says) stay on top of the drum kit, it's almost unavoidable to have some bleeding of Hi-hat in the ride mic, I mean , in my opinion they shouldn't be used to pick up cymbals only (as many use to do), but the overall stereo image of the kit; also the Hi-hat falls in a tricky frequency range, very easy to bleed into other mic's pickup.

L.G.
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  #4  
Old 12-02-2001, 01:10 PM
Eric Heil Eric Heil is offline
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Default Re: Drum Overhead Miking?

Gents,

I agree with everything both of you are saying with the small addition of using a Hyper Cardioid (high side rejection) and placeing them in an X-Y configuration 5-6 feet above stage/ground level and within 3 feet of eachother over the kit.

Anybody disagree?

Eric [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img]
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  #5  
Old 12-03-2001, 03:44 AM
kite kite is offline
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Default Re: Drum Overhead Miking?

Have you tried some pretty hard compression on your overheads -might help, but may also even up between dominant hi-hat etc...don't forget the stereo "link" switch!
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  #6  
Old 12-03-2001, 07:37 AM
gerax gerax is offline
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Default Re: Drum Overhead Miking?

Speaking of polar patterns, I think it depends a lot on the environment you're recording in: usually the more tight the pattern of the mic, the more you get proximity effect buildup (apart from side rejection), and a slightly less natural sound; when possible (i.e. not in live situations)I try to use simple cardioids, or even omnis, for a more linear response, provided that you can have the necessary isolation of the kit from other sources. Also I noticed that for stereo miking techniques phase correlation gets worse as the pattern is tighter; but that's just my opinion.

Cheers

L.G.
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  #7  
Old 12-04-2001, 03:33 AM
Erik Braund Erik Braund is offline
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Default Re: Drum Overhead Miking?

Thanks for all of your help Guys!! I really do appreciate it. My band was gigging out of town all weekend, but this week i plan on trying some of the things you suggested. Also, this prolly sounds pretty stupid, but i keep hearing it come up and need to ask.. What is all the talk about phase problems.. or mics being out of phase? i am somewhat of a newie to all this.. i have been studying it for awhile, but i just got my 001. thanks for all your help
erik braund http://www.theromancandles.com http://www.jebonline.com
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  #8  
Old 12-04-2001, 04:56 AM
div32 div32 is offline
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Default Re: Drum Overhead Miking?

I often spot mic the cymbals much the way you do, and with great success. I usually place them about 18" above the cymbal, sometimes more or less depending on the sound of it and the drummer's style. I use XY with nice mics when the drummer and kit are really good (seldom). I spot with Octava mc012's.
With this technique you must really watch the phase. Check the 2 sm81's soloed and reverse the phase to see if you get a good centered kick and snare. Then add the kick and reverse the phase on it till you get the most low end and volume, then repeat with snare and other drums.
I also have to EQ the overhead tracks a little because often you get a slightly shifted image of the kick & snare, depending on the kit setup. I try to EQ to just get the sound of the cymbals.
Works great on thrashy aggressive music.
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  #9  
Old 12-06-2001, 11:40 AM
Erik Braund Erik Braund is offline
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Default Re: Drum Overhead Miking?

Hey Div 32.. thanks for your help! I know i sound like a moron.. but hey, we all have to learn at some time. How do i "reverse the phase"? are there any other mics you can suggest that would get me a noticably better over head sound? Money is not THAT big of a factor, but i dont really wanna spend like $1,000 per mic.. I shoul dprobably just learn to use what i have now that i think of it!

Thanks again for all your help!
Erik Braund
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  #10  
Old 12-06-2001, 06:45 PM
div32 div32 is offline
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Default Re: Drum Overhead Miking?

The Octava MC012 mics I mentioned are about $150 ea at Guitar Center. If your board (or mic pre's) is lacking a phase switch on each channel, you can make a workaround by wiring an XLR barrel or short cable so that pin 2 input goes to pin 3 output and vice versa. I know it's a PITA but you won't have to worry about plugin delay (to be anal, you should plug the same EQ's across all the drums, even if you're not using them if you want to reverse öööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööö öööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööö öööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööö öööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööö öööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööö öööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööö öööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööö öööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööö öööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööö öööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööö ööööööööööööied QUickDraw's suggestions.. It was an improvement from what I had before, but there still wasnt enough separation.

Div32.. I am a little confused by the wiring thing youwere talking about with pin 2 and three.. Do you think ill get THAT much latency if i use the plugins? i have a 733 with 890 RAM..

What kind pf preamps do you use? The only one i have is a DBX 586 dual channel, which i am putting my kick and snare through. What do you suggest for toms and overheads?

Thanks again for all your help
erik Braund
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