ICON D ? Is this the new controller?

[Wolfgang Eller]

We have a SSL MT. We have an Amek Mozart which we wants to replace it. And we where waiting for the new Digi controller. Now it´s there, but we don´t buy it:
It´s ugly, it´s overpriced and it´s not practical (I don´t want to have the keyboard where the VCA masters should be.)

We talked about yesterday and came to the conclusion that a used SSL MT+ with 36 Mic pres at a price between $140 - 160k is the "same price" ( if you take in account that you have a SSL desk plus an ingredible automation ) than a Digi Icon with 48 faders and 40 Mic pres.

A reasonable price for a 48 fader incl. 32 Mic pres would be
$60k. More is a rip of.

But everybody have to decide by your own if it´s worth the money. For us NO, for a SSL yes.

Cheers Wolfgang

SSL room
Amek room

[JLC]

Thanks a lot TXDigi but:

You don't have to stop playback in a SSL or Neve to change automatch time, and this parameter is in the main window. It will be nice to have some more units, how about musical units, frames...

SHOULDN'T THIS PARAMETER BE IN AUTOMATION ENABLE WINDOW WITH ALL THE PARAMETERS THAT HAVE ANY RELATION WITH AUTOMATION?
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-There should be a software option to switch off the motor-faders while checking a mix.
Automation prefs: you can turn the motors off "Faders move during playback"

Nop motors still moving in my Control 24 no faders movements in the screen, but console faders works. I think this feature is made to have less CPU work.

IN A DIGITAL CONSOLE (CONTROLLER) IS QUITE EASIER TO IMPLEMENT A SOFTWARE FEATURE TO AVOID MOTORS WHILE CHEKING A MIX
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-In auto touch-trim mode faders should remain in 0dB position to make trim easier and go back to 0dB
use auto write:trim mode and this will do exactly what you want. a very cool feature

You don't understand me. Nop in auto write:trim mode faders dont go back to 0 dB when you release the fader according to auto match time... It doesn't help at all, but this mode is ok to stop faders (but please don't touch them )

REFER TO TRIM MODE IN SONY'S DIGITAL CONSOLES (EVEN DMX-R100) OR GROUPS IN ANALOG! NEVES VR'S IN AUTO MATCH MODE (SAME FOR SSL)

IN A DIGITAL CONSOLE (CONTROLLER) IS QUITE EASIER TO IMPLEMENT THIS FEATURE FADERS SHOULD MOVE IN AUTO TOUCH MODE AND SHOULD NOT MOVE IN AUTO TOUCH-TRIM MODE (ONLY TO GO BACK TO 0 dB POSITION WHEN YOU RELEASE THE FADER ACCORDING TO AUTO MATCH TIME)
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There should be a trim zoom mode to work with +/- 3 dB resolution in +/- 6 dB fader region

Do you remember that group faders with different scales in some Neve VR's?. They were wonderfull you've got six centimeters to make +/- 3 dB changes... This is really a "fine" mode... Now you have +6 -10 dB range in the same space.

IN A DIGITAL CONSOLE (CONTROLLER) IS QUITE EASIER TO IMPLEMENT A SOFTWARE FEATURE TO CHANGE THE SCALE OF A FADER

I Think I am not asking for very complex changes... But very musical ones...

[Muzza]

dr sound:

As for panning, you can use the Rotary encoders, one at a time L,C,R then F/B. Hell, we've mixed movies with a ton of panning with just a mouse. At least it's automated, repeatable.

is it just me or is there a conspicuous blank panel there in the middle?
I'm concerned that there is only one support for a monitor arm. Surely there needs to be the option of two or more.
Ideally, something like this would come as standard. (sorry for the dreadful winblows fisher price desktop)

[Kenny Gioia]

Produceher,

If I may, let me jump in...you're right...$150k for a fully blown PT studio. Add another $25k for more pre's, another HD card or two and perhaps a few more plugs. So, we're at $175K. Now let's compare that to the Euphonix System 5 at, what, $250k and the SSL Axiom at, say, $500k. Now, let's remember that neither of those other products records, stores or edits audio...they only mix recorded tracks and/or route signals from one destination to another. In a sense, they are somewhat "limited" surfaces. In that context, I think the new surface might be quite cool.

J

Yeah, but the ICON doesn't mix or route tracks at all. If you look at the system overall it might look good because of the great "Pro Tools" engine inside. But the perception is all messed up because we all got 99% of the way there with the first $30,000. The HD system. Suddenly I'm supposed to cough up (and I am couging) an extra $145,000 because they did such a great job on the $30,000 part.

This is why a complete system would have made more sense.

Secondly, why the heck would you want the Mic Pre's onboard, when every single Mic Pre in the world is configured somewhat differently? You really think that Digi should have allotted valuable real estate for something which many users (mixers) are NEVER going to use (and when they do, they're perfectly happy to use the Brent Averills they already have)? And do you really think that the Mic Pre manufacturers are going to retool their line for ONE specific application?

I disagree. Lots of us track into Pro Tools too. Real estate for a simple mic pre (no EQ) on this board would not be difficult at all. And I do believe that companies like Brent Averill and Chandler would jump at the chance to make modules for this board. People like me, who already own pre's, could simply mail it back to the manufacterer for a $100-$150 fee to place it into the "Digi" Module.

And it's not re-tooling their line. It's adding an extra option. These Mic Pre companies are only in business because of DAW's like Pro Tools. You get one or two onboard and they'll all come running.

Peace

[thestudio]

johnnyv

If I may, let me jump in...you're right...$150k for a fully blown PT studio. Add another $25k for more pre's, another HD card or two and perhaps a few more plugs. So, we're at $175K. Now let's compare that to the Euphonix System 5 at, what, $250k and the SSL Axiom at, say, $500k. Now, let's remember that neither of those other products records, stores or edits audio...they only mix recorded tracks and/or route signals from one destination to another. In a sense, they are somewhat "limited" surfaces. In that context, I think the new surface might be quite cool.

I don't remember reading the D-Control can "record, store or edit audio"? I know my HD system can do those things? ITS A CONTROLLER....THAT'S IT...

[georgia]

"So what do you think? Where did Digi go wrong? What should they have introduced instead?"

hmmmm...

The new console should have come with its own operating platform (Mac, PC, whatever) that handles all hardware automation moves, IO for the Monitor section, IO for Meters, automation management, and interfaces with the protools system.
OR
Create a new control surface card set that integrates with the Protools card set in an expansion chassie allowing the control of surface hardware management, monitor seciton and metering.

Additionally, the ICON should come with:

REAL meters ( plasma or otherwise ) NOT segment LEDs feed via ethernet.
Automation History ( automation Tree )
Automated Joy stick
video monitor ( flatsceen ) for console control and automation control


oh well...

cheers
georgia

[PhilS]

Here are my .2 $.
After looking online at the latest info, I have noticed a few things that concern me.
1. Metering. If I recall correctly, metering only updates every x # of samples - and if the metering on the Icon is the same as the PC setup - I think you can actually miss an over.
(in the past, I have been able to get different peak levels by looping and playing the same audio section)

2. Eq/Dynamics section. Digi is touting this new console as a total tracking and mixing solution.
Now, according to pics on the web, those dedicated sections have no scribble strips above or below the encoders indicating what changes I have made. Maybe I have missed something, but if I wish to lower 1.2k by 1.5db, I first find the correct knob on the consoles dedicated control, and then - have to look up at the monitor to see the actual values?

3. Armrest. If this is supposed to become my main console, it had better have wide, comfortable, padded armrest. I think we can all agree the the one on PC is not comfortable and in no way was designed to last.

4. Monitoring section. If there is a god, Digi has learned from the PC monitoring section fiasco.

5. Build Quality. The PC, as much as I love it, was simply not built to last. The armrest was junk that has to be replaced regularly if you want to continue to look good. Also, the whole surface aplique bubbles up from time to time and has to be pressed down. I hope this issue has been solved.

5. Modularity. Please tell me that the first 16 faders are not built on to the center section. This is a wide center section, and if choose to buid a wedge shaped console, it should be my choice to do so. It would also help should something need to be shipped.

These are just observations. I like Digi products and use them almost exclusively. I am just reserving judgement until I can run the console through it's paces with my own two mitts.

Phil

[1150Post]

Come on guys and gals. Be patient. I gleaned nothing from the Mix Mag article that indicated this was a simple product to explain, and there seems to be a good bit of depth built into it. At least too much to shove into a quick review.

Obviously, everyone wants a be-all, end-all "console" that will control ProTools, because that's what all this hub-bub is about after all. Single Malt dreams on a blended scotch budget seem to be the wishes as well. Digidesign has created tools that have blurred the distinction between Pro and Hobbyist users. It doesn't mean that every product they develop should immediately map down to the LE users. Or that it should hit a specific price point.

I'm sure there are several users, who are in the minority, who would like a film monitor box with paddles... I would too. Don't look like it's there, nor will it, probably. But that's just it. We all work differently. I realized years ago that no one manufacturer creates the perfect solution for every situation. I am sure that Digi spent time trying to develop a generalized product that broadly fit the greatest scope of applications.... I'm almost positive you WON'T see an Icon-D-B, an Icon-D-F... like the System 5. It's just not feasible.

You want your SSL/Neve.... fine. Your 2 dozen High End Preamps? Great! I don't. Are you feeling disappointed and concerned that you will have too many things piled up in the suite just to mix/track in Protools? Tough. How is it any different than before, when your console had pres, and you were using your favorite flavor anyway? How is it any different than having the Boss Machine Controller to run edits, along with your SSL or NEVE console controller computer, the old Apple or PC for the 2 track digital editor, not to mention any sound modules or samplers and their respective controllers, with TC DA'd around the room like chicken wire, or having to reset the Lynx modules on the 24 track machines to get an edit to roll. Oh yeah, do you still Polaroid each section of the console surface so you can reset the board should someone come back for revisions? The abilities to understand and utilize the tools to their fullest, to evaluate and establish workflow methods that are inovative and that meet the time/budget needs of your clients, and to deliver a quality product are the facets of this industry that seperate the pros from the others. This device, too, will be implemented into various different workflows. On a vast scope of projects.

The Icon is just another "solution" that you can choose to implement or not. It may or may not meet your workflow requirements. Don't be selfish and discount the validity of it because it does not seem to immediately meet your needs, and all of this before it's even been released or before you have taken a demo on it. It might just meet mine, or a whole slew of people who try to quietly create innovative new approaches to the same old problems using whatever new solutions are available to them. But unless we've seen it, who knows?

This controller is just that, a controller. If you want a console, use a console. I'll take a controller any day. But that is the method of working that meets my needs.

And please! Can we stop trying dictate price? It is what it costs. If that works for you, fine. If not, there are solutions at many different price points that you can adapt to your work flow. Don't just crash the party because you're not invited. It may not be a party you want to attend. I know that I will weigh the cost of the controller against what I see it adding to my efficiency, creativity, and quality of product before I go ask someone to throw down the cash. But I haven't seen it yet, and don't know enough about it to even speculate.

I'm waiting for the demo and the d/l on the users manual. I may be blown away, or I might just happily continue to mix on my Control24...... in surround..... with no joysticks! Gasp! (I actually prefer 3 knob film style, joysticks tend to make the client want to make everything "spin", which makes the viewer "vomit".)

Sorry to jump up on the old soap box, but this is just getting silly. Let's all wait and see. Anybody going to NAB?

Respectfully,

Brad McIlvaine
Sr. Mixer/Designer
Henninger Media Services
Washington, DC 20036

[PhilS]

Good points, but if digi wants to be the end all in the digital audio world, they should really open the market so that others may develop high level control surfaces.
Also, the price does not bother me.. it is more an issue of delivering that big ticket item with all of the features needed to work efficiantly without a monitor (save some editing functions)
I consider this only a step in the right direction.
Phil

[uno1234]

It's just flat out too expensive. That's the real problem. Maybe Digi needs to sell it for that much to make money on it, but the reality is, it's a lot of money that can be spent on other parts of a studio that actually AFFECTS THE SOUND.