Dealing with track counts

[The Weed]

I'm sorry, I'm not following. I've used PT since version 5 with an 001. I know very well what the limitations are and have been. I was merely agreeing with others that deleting tracks above the limit was bad and the tracks above the limit should just be made inactive, as in the past.

Are you saying the deleting of tracks is okay? Or are we having a difference in translation?

[wwittman]

while it is unLIKELY that I am going to find myself needing more than 128 tracks, we have to be realistic in that the trend is (probably for no good reasons) toward more and more tracks.

one could argue that the very fact that now the "lite" version supports 128 tracks shows that the trend runs that way.

so while before I was periodically given an HD session to large for PT9 but able to open it and activate tracks as needed, those sessions still were (apparently) less than 128 tracks total.
but as the size of the HD sessions goes up (again, probably pointlessly, but they do) the odds on a serious Native user being handed a session with more than 128 tracks to do deal with goes up.

the point remains that the ability to go back and forth shouldn't be hampered UNNECESSARILY.

[demodigi]

Originally Posted by The Weed

Are you saying the deleting of tracks is okay?

I don't say it's Okay.

I'm just saying it was already the case before (if you had to open a session with more than 128 tracks in any other version of PT LE or Vanilla, PT would tell you that it will delete those tracks too).

So, I just don't understand why all of you are complaining TODAY ?

And this limitation is cleary stated in all Pro Tools Reference guide (example from " PT12.0 reference guide " - Part II, chap 5) :

Up to a total of 96 voiced mono or stereo audio tracks (up to 128 voiceable audio tracks) per session

And from " What’s New in Pro Tools 12.1.pdf " (and 12.2) :

New Features and Improvements in Pro Tools 12.1
Pro Tools HD Features Now Available with Pro Tools
• Support for up to 128 audio tracks

Where do you read the voiceable audio track count has changed ?

But I agree this limitation is ridiculous (especially since LE -Limited Version- version doesn't exist anymore = since PT9).

[nigelpry]

Well, as promised, I've loaded up my trusty old G5 PT8LE rig to test this out.

AND, ACTUALLY, I WAS WRONG!

Sorry Jeffro for doubting you.

Track counts above the active limit become inactive. Track counts above the maximum voiceable limit are dropped (deleted) irrevocably.

So, for example (all these tests done at 44.1k) PT8LE allowed you to have 48 tracks active, and 128 Voiceable in total.

PT10 allows 96 active tracks, with 128 voiceable, but I have a CPTK license for 10, so that gives me 256 active mono tracks, out of a total of 768 voiceable.

The active and voiceable track counts for PT11 and PT12 are the same as for PT10 ... obviously there is no CPTK, but 11/12HD when running under Core Audio (no Avid HD hardware attached) give you the same track counts as PT10 + CPTK.

To test, I loaded up PT10, created a session with 50 tracks, and saved a copy using the PT7-9 format.

Then, I loaded the session into PT8LE.

Result was the first 48 tracks were active, and tracks 49 and 50 were inactive, but funnily enough, their status wasn't actually set to inactive, because if you right click on one of them, there was the option to make the track inactive, not to make it active. But I could tell it was inactive by the background colour of the track in the edit window. There was no data, just empty tracks, otherwise the clips would have shown up as inactive too.

If I made any other track inactive, then track 49 became active without me having to do anything. Make another one inactive, and track 50 automatically became active. After that, I had to correctly choose to make a track inactive and
then choose to make one of the inactive tracks active, it was no longer automatic.

So, then, back in PT10, I added another 80 tracks, making the total number of tracks 130. All were active, as with the CPTK license present, the active track count is 256, instead of 96.

Again, saved it in PT7-9 format, and then loaded it into PT8LE.

Tracks 1 to 48 were active, tracks 49 to 128 were inactive ....

AND TRACKS 129 and 130 WERE NOWHERE TO BE SEEN.

They had simply been deleted from the project when loaded into PT8LE.

I did it again, and this time noticed that in the session notes dialog pop up, it did contain a warning informing me that it had dropped tracks that were over the maximum track count limit. I missed that the first time, because it was buried in amongst other information in that dialog box.

I saved the project in PT8LE and then loaded it again into PT10+CPTK.

128 tracks were present, so the two extra tracks had been permanently dropped. I did notice that tracks 49-128, which were inactive in PT8LE, but had not been set inactive by me (just automatically) were active again.

I then went back to PT8LE and resaved after myself setting tracks 49-128 inactive. On reloading into PT10+CPTK, the tracks I had myself set to inactive in PT8LE remained inactive.

So, the bottom line, is is true, at least as far back as I can check (PT8LE) that Pro Tools has always simply dropped (= deleted) any tracks over and above the maximum voiceable track count, when loading a session created in PTHD into PTLE/vanilla.

I didn't believe it, but now I do.

So if you have more than 96 tracks (at 44.1k) in a session and you load it into PT10/11/12 vanilla, then tracks 97-128 will be inactive. If you have more than 128 tracks, all of the tracks above number 128 will be deleted. You'll get a dialog box warning, which also contains other less important info, but no option to back out. Lower track counts apply in earlier versions of course, but 10/11/12 is what most prople will be interested in I guess.

If you then save that session, you'll have lost those extra tracks, so you better pray you have backups.

Again, sorry Jeffro, you are correct, this is not a bug, and it is not a change in functionality.

[coolbass]

Originally Posted by nigelpry

Well, as promised, I've loaded up my trusty old G5 PT8LE rig to test this out.

AND, ACTUALLY, I WAS WRONG!


Again, sorry Jeffro, you are correct, this is not a bug, and it is not a change in functionality.

Ok, I concur. But PT should never delete tracks in this way, make inactive ok, but not delete.

[The Weed]

Nigel,

Thanks for this. Question. You say above: "Track counts above the active limit become inactive. Track counts above the maximum voiceable limit are dropped (deleted) irrevocably." And you have proven this with your tests.

However, from the Pro Tools 12.2.1 Reference manual, page 34:

"If you open a Pro Tools session created on a Pro Tools HD system that contains more than the number of tracks supported on your Pro Tools system, audio tracks beyond the system’s voiceable track limit will be automatically set to inactive."

And from page 367 of the same manual:

"A Pro Tools HD session can be opened with Pro Tools, but certain session components open differently or not at all.

When opening a Pro Tools HD 12.x session in Pro Tools 12.x, the following occurs:

Tracks

• Any tracks beyond the first 128 are made inactive.

• Any Instrument tracks beyond 128 are made inactive.

• Any Auxiliary Input tracks beyond 128 are made inactive.

• DSP plug-ins with Native equivalents are converted; those without equivalents are made inactive.

• Multichannel surround tracks are removed from the session.

• Unavailable input and output paths are made inactive.

• HEAT (if present) is removed."

No mention of regular tracks above the limits being deleted, only made inactive. The only mention of tracks being removed are in the case of multichannel surround tracks (I'm assuming removed means deleted.)

I did find this:

"

When saving a Pro Tools 12.x–10.x session to Pro Tools 5.1 -> 6.9 format, the following occurs:• All that occurs when saving a Pro Tools 12.x–10.x session to Pro Tools 7–>9 session format.

Tracks

• Any audio tracks beyond 256 are removed.

• Any internal mix busses beyond 128 are removed.

• Output bus assignments are removed"

And other information not related directly to track deletion.

I guess the 12.2.1 manual is not reflecting the reality of track deletion above a certain limit and depending on the Pro Tools version, or, in my limited searching of the 12.2.1 manual I haven't found it.

[jeffro]

Originally Posted by nigelpry

So, the bottom line, is is true, at least as far back as I can check (PT8LE) that Pro Tools has always simply dropped (= deleted) any tracks over and above the maximum voiceable track count, when loading a session created in PTHD into PTLE/vanilla.

Thanks for the effort to test this (and the humility to correct your previous assertions). Helpful as I'm still only about half way through installing 10.6.8 and downloading the 4.6 GB LE installer. I'll still continue that to grab some screenshots later.

And to be clear I wasn't debating the desired functionality of keeping tracks vs deleting, just trying to understand the claims that this somehow changed in 12 and the sudden urgency/demand to fix a 'new problem' that has actually been consistent behavior for many years.

[jeffro]

Originally Posted by The Weed

from the Pro Tools 12.2.1 Reference manual...

Thanks for pointing this out! I have passed your comments on to Tech Pubs to get the docs corrected.

[The Weed]

Originally Posted by jeffro

Thanks for pointing this out! I have passed your comments on to Tech Pubs to get the docs corrected.

Maybe pass it on to the coding techs and have them change the delete action to just inactive? It'll save changing the manual(s)

[simonjewel]

Originally Posted by the weed

maybe pass it on to the coding techs and have them change the delete action to just inactive? It'll save changing the manual(s)

+10000