Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Learn & Support


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > General Discussion & Off Topic > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-17-2018, 05:51 AM
PatriotsBiker PatriotsBiker is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 832
Default Clean Power - UPS specific type?

I was thinking of clean power recently. Obviously, the sub $300 power conditioners have their limitations. With all the electrical activity in the house, it's quite nerve wracking to hear the 'fridge of the HVAC click on through your audio. Bad for everything, especially when tracking.

So I went in search of various options. Lots of high dollar options and some low items, including the ever popular ebb tech hum remover. I ran across the usual suspects, including that $30 outlet that has to be hooked up in a certain way. (electrician would be called, for sure)

So then I saw people using a specific type of USB called an Online, Pure Sine double transforming power. Basically, it converts the power from AC to DC, and then separately from DC back to AC. Anything noise coming through the building's electrical system would be isolated. I've done some audio research and seen some older posts on different forums use these for their mobile rigs, and even to clean up some noisy permanent installs. Not sure I trust the sources.

Do any of you here use such a unit and/or have any thoughts on this?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-17-2018, 09:00 AM
panamajack's Avatar
panamajack panamajack is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Miniappleapolis
Posts: 710
Default Re: Clean Power - UPS specific type?

I use a Furman AR-15 II Voltage Regulator Power Conditioner.
__________________
PT10.3.10HD(Tyan s2932 [8core Shanghai 2.7GHZ] 32GB,Win7 SP1); PT10HD(Tyan s2892 w/10GB, Win7 SP1);PT8HD(Dell 690 quad Xeon 3.0, 8GB, Win7,192 I/O, 96 I/O);MacBook Pro: 11R, Apogee Element 46, Focusrite 8PreX PT HD 11.3.2; Mac Pro 3.47 Hex 32GB, OSX 10.12.6/L10.4.2;L9.1.8, 2.64TB; G5 D2.3 4GB, 10.4.11/L8; 12c MP 2.66/32GB PT12.4; Structure, GigaGS3, Kontakt 5, Garratin, Sibelius 8.7+, Finale26,EMU,Vegas Pro 16-10/; RME HDSP9652,MOTU 2408 MKIII/1224/308, FX,Kurz,L5s,Strat,ASAT,JB,Zon
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-17-2018, 10:16 AM
musicman691 musicman691 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Soprano State (NJ)
Posts: 16,520
Default Re: Clean Power - UPS specific type?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatriotsBiker View Post
I was thinking of clean power recently. Obviously, the sub $300 power conditioners have their limitations. With all the electrical activity in the house, it's quite nerve wracking to hear the 'fridge of the HVAC click on through your audio. Bad for everything, especially when tracking.

So I went in search of various options. Lots of high dollar options and some low items, including the ever popular ebb tech hum remover. I ran across the usual suspects, including that $30 outlet that has to be hooked up in a certain way. (electrician would be called, for sure)

So then I saw people using a specific type of USB called an Online, Pure Sine double transforming power. Basically, it converts the power from AC to DC, and then separately from DC back to AC. Anything noise coming through the building's electrical system would be isolated. I've done some audio research and seen some older posts on different forums use these for their mobile rigs, and even to clean up some noisy permanent installs. Not sure I trust the sources.

Do any of you here use such a unit and/or have any thoughts on this?
I'm a huge fan of APC UPS's. The one I have is as you describe where it completely regenerates the incoming AC power to a true sine wave. Why's that important? Transformers have a hard time dealing with the output of cheaper UPS's which are a stepped approximation of a sinewave - IOW a square wave. It ain't cheap but it's a damn sight less expensive than replacing your computer and peripherals. Just make sure you size it for your needs with a good bit left over.

What do I have connected to mine?
The computer (2012 MacPro cheesegrater), monitor screen, 2 external spinner drives, powered USB hub. I do not have my monitor speakers, mixer, audio interface, external synths & MIDI interface connected to the UPS. Those are connected via a couple of filtered power strips to an APC rack mounted power distribution box that also does line filtering. The UPS is connected to that as well.

Oh yeah - I have a small light connected to the UPS so that when the power goes out I can see enough to not stumble around the studio.
Quote:
Originally Posted by panamajack View Post
I use a Furman AR-15 II Voltage Regulator Power Conditioner.
That piece is NOT an UPS. I used to love Furman equipment but when I had one go into literal meltdown and overvoltaged what I had connected to it that's when I sad bye-bye to that company. There was nothing wrong with the incoming AC power - the regulation circuitry just went haywire.

I have APC UPS's on every piece of electronics in my house. Again it's not cheap but saves what's connected to it. It's real fun when the incoming power drops out and they all start beeping and not in time with each other either. Like a fellow that we had come out and repair our chimney a couple of years back who lives a couple streets down from me said: every time a mouse farts the power goes out.
__________________
Jack
See profile for system details
iMac dead & retired as of 11/4/17

QAPLA!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-17-2018, 10:41 AM
The Weed's Avatar
The Weed The Weed is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6,132
Default Re: Clean Power - UPS specific type?

I have two of these, one for each of my computers:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...c_ups_lcd.html

The power in my neighborhood was very touch and go, but a bit better since the power company made a few changes.
__________________
Take your projects to the next level with a
non-union national read at a reasonable rate
Demos: brucehayward dot com
Source-Connect: brucehayward
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-17-2018, 11:50 AM
panamajack's Avatar
panamajack panamajack is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Miniappleapolis
Posts: 710
Default Re: Clean Power - UPS specific type?

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post

...That piece is NOT an UPS.
Correct. Was thinking more of noise that power loss.

I use Tripp-Lite, Belkin, and Cyberpower and a few other brands of UPS backup systems.

I had had three of my five APC UPS units crap out. I liked that I could reprogram them with a special cable attached to USB, but their failure rate of 3 out of 5 pretty much made me lose faith.

FYI: That Furman AR-15 unit was dead when I bought it (paid $50 for it). I sent it in and had Furman replace the motherboard.

The APC units I sent to the local electronics graveyard.
__________________
PT10.3.10HD(Tyan s2932 [8core Shanghai 2.7GHZ] 32GB,Win7 SP1); PT10HD(Tyan s2892 w/10GB, Win7 SP1);PT8HD(Dell 690 quad Xeon 3.0, 8GB, Win7,192 I/O, 96 I/O);MacBook Pro: 11R, Apogee Element 46, Focusrite 8PreX PT HD 11.3.2; Mac Pro 3.47 Hex 32GB, OSX 10.12.6/L10.4.2;L9.1.8, 2.64TB; G5 D2.3 4GB, 10.4.11/L8; 12c MP 2.66/32GB PT12.4; Structure, GigaGS3, Kontakt 5, Garratin, Sibelius 8.7+, Finale26,EMU,Vegas Pro 16-10/; RME HDSP9652,MOTU 2408 MKIII/1224/308, FX,Kurz,L5s,Strat,ASAT,JB,Zon
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-17-2018, 01:20 PM
BScout BScout is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,057
Default Re: Clean Power - UPS specific type?

Proper "online" UPS are loud because they have cooling fans because they are constantly running off the battery (and doing AC/DC conversion to refuel the battery) vs any switching.

If you don't have a distant room or machine room, it will be a problem.
On top of that, using a online UPS requires you also have all your analog gear plugged into the same one because you have decoupled that circuit from the ground creating an independent battery circuit.

As for sine wave, rectified sine wave, and PFC (power factor correction) sine wave UPS, that's a whole different issue different than the way that line interactive/standby UPS work vs online ups.

But if you are getting an electrician in, better than any UPS for "power clean up" is to divide your circuits and keep motors away from the circuits used for the studio and make sure your grounding is correct. Transformers and AC/DC power supplies in equipment already "clean up" the power.

But some of what you are describing is voltage sag -- motors (like HVAC compressors/refrigerators), laser printers, etc. And sometimes that can be solved by a good electrician.
__________________
Pro Tools Ult 2019.6, HDX 3, MTRX/SPQ, HD OmniMac Pro 5,1 - 3.06 GHz 12 core - macOS 10.13.6RAM 64GB, SSD 4 x 2TB, GPU GTX 980 4GB
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-17-2018, 05:27 PM
musicman691 musicman691 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Soprano State (NJ)
Posts: 16,520
Default Re: Clean Power - UPS specific type?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BScout View Post
Proper "online" UPS are loud because they have cooling fans because they are constantly running off the battery (and doing AC/DC conversion to refuel the battery) vs any switching.

If you don't have a distant room or machine room, it will be a problem.
On top of that, using a online UPS requires you also have all your analog gear plugged into the same one because you have decoupled that circuit from the ground creating an independent battery circuit.

As for sine wave, rectified sine wave, and PFC (power factor correction) sine wave UPS, that's a whole different issue different than the way that line interactive/standby UPS work vs online ups.

But if you are getting an electrician in, better than any UPS for "power clean up" is to divide your circuits and keep motors away from the circuits used for the studio and make sure your grounding is correct. Transformers and AC/DC power supplies in equipment already "clean up" the power.

But some of what you are describing is voltage sag -- motors (like HVAC compressors/refrigerators), laser printers, etc. And sometimes that can be solved by a good electrician.
I have an online UPS and it is NOT loud at all. The only time it's loud is when it goes through it's self-test at power on. Transformers and AC/DC power supplies do NOT clean up power - you can still get transients through. And most AC/DC power supplies these days are switch mode and not linear because it's cheaper and creates less heat. One of the downsides with a switch mode supply is that they run at high frequencies and for the most part are poorly shielded so you get plenty of emi/rfi.

Yes the op might be having voltage sag but it may well be on the incoming mains circuit. I know because it happens where I live. And it's why I have the AC power protection that I have. Analogy here: the water coming out of the taps in Flint Michigan is cleaner than your typical AC mains at least here in the US.
__________________
Jack
See profile for system details
iMac dead & retired as of 11/4/17

QAPLA!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-17-2018, 06:14 PM
BScout BScout is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,057
Default Re: Clean Power - UPS specific type?

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
I have an online UPS and it is NOT loud at all.
What is the make/model of this UPS?
__________________
Pro Tools Ult 2019.6, HDX 3, MTRX/SPQ, HD OmniMac Pro 5,1 - 3.06 GHz 12 core - macOS 10.13.6RAM 64GB, SSD 4 x 2TB, GPU GTX 980 4GB
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-17-2018, 06:26 PM
musicman691 musicman691 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Soprano State (NJ)
Posts: 16,520
Default Re: Clean Power - UPS specific type?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BScout View Post
What is the make/model of this UPS?
My big one is this:
https://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/produ...V/P-SRT1000XLA

And my smaller ones are:
https://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/produ...nect/P-SMT750C
__________________
Jack
See profile for system details
iMac dead & retired as of 11/4/17

QAPLA!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-17-2018, 06:30 PM
BScout BScout is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,057
Default Re: Clean Power - UPS specific type?

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
Transformers and AC/DC power supplies do NOT clean up power - you can still get transients through.
I think we need to define what "cleaning up power" means. Electricians don't agree on these made-up terms even.

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
the most part are poorly shielded so you get plenty of emi/rfi.
Once again, see previous. Shielding doesn't have anything to do with cleaning up power. You can have the cleanest power on the planet and shielding will still be necessary because power is going to generate fields.
__________________
Pro Tools Ult 2019.6, HDX 3, MTRX/SPQ, HD OmniMac Pro 5,1 - 3.06 GHz 12 core - macOS 10.13.6RAM 64GB, SSD 4 x 2TB, GPU GTX 980 4GB
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
clean, quiet electrical power Namaste Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac) 16 10-21-2003 08:27 PM
Specific Type 2 error - Digi please help athlone 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 2 08-26-2003 11:36 AM
Clean power and cheap powerstrips MidnightFlyer 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 4 01-27-2003 09:37 AM
Clean power...NO MORE HUMMMM Machead 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 2 12-24-2002 11:56 AM
Type 3 Error - more specific info??? imp 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 6 10-11-2001 11:48 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:46 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com