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  #61  
Old 04-14-2010, 11:29 AM
O.G. Killa's Avatar
O.G. Killa O.G. Killa is offline
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Default Re: Avid buys Euphonix

I was at NAB... it was sad to see just how AVID views Protools. It is just another "plugin" to Media Composer.

I was also really sad to hear that they are buying Euphonix. AVID has slashed 2/3rd's of DIGI's and M-Audio's workforce in the last year or so. I have a lot of close friends that worked at Digi and M-Audio, All of them (including a VP at Digi) were laid off.

It's kind of a slap in the face and a F@#% you to the people (some of whom spent a decade or more at digidesign and M-audio) who made avid profitable again by being let go... only to see their salaries and their hard work go to avid aquiring another company.

This isn't the first time Avid has tried to buy Euphonix. Before the ICON was developed Avid/Digi tried and the negotiations never went anywhere. So they decided to make their own console since they couldn't buy someone else's and designed the ICON. They "borrowed" a lot of the features and design layouts of the Euphonix, on top of adding some of their own ideas. Now that the ICON is really crushing Euphonix, they have no other alternative.

All I know is, the money that could have been spent reinvesting in products they already have, was spent on aquiring a new brand they don't really need. Sure, it'll be great to have EuCon in PTHD and PTLE. In talking to one of the Avid folks at the NAB booth, he said that will be one of the first priorities once the deal goes through. But as many of us have mentioned, there are so many things wrong with PT8 that should be fixed, it's a shame to see Avid spend it's resources this way.

There will be some good that comes out of this. But I know first had the reason PT hasn't been getting updated as quickly as it used to is because there aren't nearly as many developers as there used to be. So now you have 1 guy trying to do the work of 3.

my prediction... in 3 to 5 years time, protools will go away and will be absorbed into Media Composer. And media composer will try to be like a High End vegas Video, where all your video editing and audio editing is done in one program. Everything they have done in the last year just doesn't make sense unless this is the long term goal. And judging by the presentations at the NAB show this year... it was very clear that protools wasn't listed anywhere. as you walked around the booth all you saw was heading of the different things Media Composer can do. (Digital Finishing, Non Linear Editing...) with a Media Composer station underneath each heading. Under the "Audio Editing and Mixing" heading there was a PTLE system with a MC Control and MC Mix, and a PTHD system with a D-control... no mention of "protools" at all anywhere. I walked by it twice before I noticed the Dcommand. Their whole big stage production was trying to show how Media composer and Protools integrate... And now Audio plugins are starting to run inside Media Composer....

Which leads me to believe that the skeleton crew that was kept on at Digidesign is there to assist the Avid developers in merging PT code into Media Composer...

Who knows... I could be totally wrong on this... maybe it's a good thing... maybe it's a bad thing... only time will tell. But the NAB show was very discouraging to say the least.
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  #62  
Old 04-14-2010, 11:44 AM
lafilmsound lafilmsound is offline
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Default Re: Avid buys Euphonix

Hey OG checked out some of the tunes on myspace very cool... seems avid has been moving in this direction for the last couple of years but the new CEO seems very savvy so we will see what happens. If protools is absorbed into media composer then I see it as an opportunity for other amazing companies to fill the void which I welcome with open arms... so good news in the bad news
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  #63  
Old 04-14-2010, 12:10 PM
Dism Dism is offline
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Default Re: Avid buys Euphonix

Quote:
Originally Posted by lafilmsound View Post
Which point - the point that you work for a corporation or that you have to rely on someone elses credits and standing to prove your 'point'
My point that you don't even know who Mutt Lange is, or why keeping Euphonix alive is important to the audio industry as a whole. You have to look outside the box - the entire audio industry can't be formatted to your individual needs.

I'm not saying that your opinions aren't valid, but do you have any other reasons for coming to the DUC other than to complain about what you don't have? If you hate Pro Tools so much, why do you use it? If you think Avid is unworthy of your hard earned cash, then why spend it on their products if you think there is so much else that is superior?

Regardless about how you feel, Avid is still a corporation with a corporate business plan. They can't operate like a small business and cater directly to their customers, it's simply impossible. If you don't believe me, then there's nothing I can say to make you feel otherwise, I'm just trying to open your mind a bit. I don't disagree that PT has its limitations, but for me and my colleagues they are mostly trivial. And like you said, there are PLENTY of other options that are superior in their own way. So use them, by all means. I like Pro Tools, and I use different versions, editions and across multiple platforms almost on a daily basis, with virtually no issues. At my workplace, I've been getting a Euphonix CS2000 console running, which I absolutely love. This isn't a simple little control surface, either... it's a legendary console that is still used in many high end studios to this day, and has been used by many legendary producers and engineers. To me, Euphonix going down, would be like SSL or Neave going down.

As far as your opinion in their stock dropping over the past few years... have you only been watching Avid's stock? EVERYONE's stock went down over the past couple years. This is what happens in a recession. Regardless of that, I can't think of a single corporation that hasn't had a period of time that proved challenging or even a bit misleading to their client base. Apple is one of the best examples of that. In the late 90s, it looked like they were all but bankrupt, and now they are the biggest player in Audio/Portable Media in the world, easily. They clearly were able to restructure their business plan, but I can safely guarantee you that they do not have any better customer support nor do they cater directly to their userbase. It was Apple after all, who dropped support so quickly for PPC. They've done a few silly things like dropping all the FW400 ports from their Macs, and a few other things that I haven't been too impressed with as well. It doesn't mean I think they don't want to make money. There isn't a corporation in the world who's business plan doesn't involve making MORE money every year. That's capitalism in the free market. It's how the economy works. It's not a conspiracy, it's fact. While I agree that Avid has been slow to provide certain features in PT... to me they are still features, and the software is FAR from unusable without them.

All I'm saying is take a good look at how corporations work before criticizing their business plan. If you don't like it, there are plenty of other companies out there who will welcome your money. It's not a secret, and no one is out to destroy themselves. If Avid doesn't come around, they WILL fail. Fact. I'm sure that isn't in their mission statement.
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  #64  
Old 04-14-2010, 05:15 PM
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dr sound dr sound is offline
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Default Re: Avid buys Euphonix

Quote:
Originally Posted by O.G. Killa View Post
I was at NAB... it was sad to see just how AVID views Protools. It is just another "plugin" to Media Composer.

I was also really sad to hear that they are buying Euphonix. AVID has slashed 2/3rd's of DIGI's and M-Audio's workforce in the last year or so. I have a lot of close friends that worked at Digi and M-Audio, All of them (including a VP at Digi) were laid off.

It's kind of a slap in the face and a F@#% you to the people (some of whom spent a decade or more at digidesign and M-audio) who made avid profitable again by being let go... only to see their salaries and their hard work go to avid aquiring another company.

This isn't the first time Avid has tried to buy Euphonix. Before the ICON was developed Avid/Digi tried and the negotiations never went anywhere. So they decided to make their own console since they couldn't buy someone else's and designed the ICON. They "borrowed" a lot of the features and design layouts of the Euphonix, on top of adding some of their own ideas. Now that the ICON is really crushing Euphonix, they have no other alternative.

All I know is, the money that could have been spent reinvesting in products they already have, was spent on aquiring a new brand they don't really need. Sure, it'll be great to have EuCon in PTHD and PTLE. In talking to one of the Avid folks at the NAB booth, he said that will be one of the first priorities once the deal goes through. But as many of us have mentioned, there are so many things wrong with PT8 that should be fixed, it's a shame to see Avid spend it's resources this way.

There will be some good that comes out of this. But I know first had the reason PT hasn't been getting updated as quickly as it used to is because there aren't nearly as many developers as there used to be. So now you have 1 guy trying to do the work of 3.

my prediction... in 3 to 5 years time, protools will go away and will be absorbed into Media Composer. And media composer will try to be like a High End vegas Video, where all your video editing and audio editing is done in one program. Everything they have done in the last year just doesn't make sense unless this is the long term goal. And judging by the presentations at the NAB show this year... it was very clear that protools wasn't listed anywhere. as you walked around the booth all you saw was heading of the different things Media Composer can do. (Digital Finishing, Non Linear Editing...) with a Media Composer station underneath each heading. Under the "Audio Editing and Mixing" heading there was a PTLE system with a MC Control and MC Mix, and a PTHD system with a D-control... no mention of "protools" at all anywhere. I walked by it twice before I noticed the Dcommand. Their whole big stage production was trying to show how Media composer and Protools integrate... And now Audio plugins are starting to run inside Media Composer....

Which leads me to believe that the skeleton crew that was kept on at Digidesign is there to assist the Avid developers in merging PT code into Media Composer...

Who knows... I could be totally wrong on this... maybe it's a good thing... maybe it's a bad thing... only time will tell. But the NAB show was very discouraging to say the least.
Derek,
You couldn't be further from the mark. You are absolutely wrong.
I too was at NAB and had some very interesting personal conversations with
Avid brass and Euphonix. I am not at liberty to put into print things that were said, but I believe the purchase to be in all of our best interest.
I believe that many changes are coming and they will be great.

As for other console manufactures neither Neve or Harrison were at NAB.
I sat down with SSL and Fairlight. Nice products but for the Post side of things, we have the best options available with this merger.
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  #65  
Old 04-14-2010, 06:19 PM
lafilmsound lafilmsound is offline
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Default Re: Avid buys Euphonix

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr sound View Post
Derek,
You couldn't be further from the mark. You are absolutely wrong.
I too was at NAB and had some very interesting personal conversations with
Avid brass and Euphonix. I am not at liberty to put into print things that were said, but I believe the purchase to be in all of our best interest.
I believe that many changes are coming and they will be great.

As for other console manufactures neither Neve or Harrison were at NAB.
I sat down with SSL and Fairlight. Nice products but for the Post side of things, we have the best options available with this merger.
hmmmm avid saying they are coming out with new interesting cool awesome stuff? wow I've never heard this speak from them before so exciting im ringing my sweaty palms...how many times do they need to cry wolf before we stop believing. Euphonix on the other hand is the most cutting edge console company out there-lets hope they don't put the digi folks in charge of creative or or technology decisions.
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  #66  
Old 04-14-2010, 06:53 PM
TimNielsen TimNielsen is offline
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Default Re: Avid buys Euphonix

Yeah, the name calling here is getting out of line. We can all have our various opinions.

As for me, I'm still mostly concerned with the aquisition for the following reasons.

1) For many of us, ProTools 8 is basically broken. It has some very real issues that are posted all over the DUC. They are too numerous to list. But basically it comes down to this. ProTools is still built on decades old code. It needs some serious help.

2) In the last couple of years, Digi has laid off many many talented people, and a fairly large percentage of their developers and programmers (this is what I hear, I have no firm numbers on this).

3) With the acquisition of Euphonix, and Avid stating that their now number one priority is integrate EuCon into ProTools, for many of us, we feel like there is now little hope of seeing any relief or repair to ProTools in the immediate future.

If Avid had PT up to snuff, I'd be thrilled by this merger, acquisition. I'm sure some neat stuff WILL come out of it. But at what expense? This is my concern.

ProTools has such a ludicrously long history of doing things 'half-assed'. I'm sorry, but it's true. Things implemented but never gotten quite right, ideas half implemented and then abandoned, user number one requests ignored in the software, whole subsystems of the program poorly optimized and antiquated (RTAS, Fade Files, DAE).

And some of us can't switch to other platforms, even if we wanted to. I work in the film biz, and we'll 100% ProTools for what I do. It's what I'm expected to work on, and I have to be able to deliver in that format. And since in another bone-headed move, ProTools basically refuses to talk to any other piece of software in a reliable way, I can't for instance work in Nuendo and port my work to PT, even if I wanted to.

That's my .02
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  #67  
Old 04-14-2010, 07:09 PM
lafilmsound lafilmsound is offline
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Default Re: Avid buys Euphonix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dism View Post
My point that you don't even know who Mutt Lange is, or why keeping Euphonix alive is important to the audio industry as a whole. You have to look outside the box - the entire audio industry can't be formatted to your individual needs.

I'm not saying that your opinions aren't valid, but do you have any other reasons for coming to the DUC other than to complain about what you don't have? If you hate Pro Tools so much, why do you use it? If you think Avid is unworthy of your hard earned cash, then why spend it on their products if you think there is so much else that is superior?

Regardless about how you feel, Avid is still a corporation with a corporate business plan. They can't operate like a small business and cater directly to their customers, it's simply impossible. If you don't believe me, then there's nothing I can say to make you feel otherwise, I'm just trying to open your mind a bit. I don't disagree that PT has its limitations, but for me and my colleagues they are mostly trivial. And like you said, there are PLENTY of other options that are superior in their own way. So use them, by all means. I like Pro Tools, and I use different versions, editions and across multiple platforms almost on a daily basis, with virtually no issues. At my workplace, I've been getting a Euphonix CS2000 console running, which I absolutely love. This isn't a simple little control surface, either... it's a legendary console that is still used in many high end studios to this day, and has been used by many legendary producers and engineers. To me, Euphonix going down, would be like SSL or Neave going down.

As far as your opinion in their stock dropping over the past few years... have you only been watching Avid's stock? EVERYONE's stock went down over the past couple years. This is what happens in a recession. Regardless of that, I can't think of a single corporation that hasn't had a period of time that proved challenging or even a bit misleading to their client base. Apple is one of the best examples of that. In the late 90s, it looked like they were all but bankrupt, and now they are the biggest player in Audio/Portable Media in the world, easily. They clearly were able to restructure their business plan, but I can safely guarantee you that they do not have any better customer support nor do they cater directly to their userbase. It was Apple after all, who dropped support so quickly for PPC. They've done a few silly things like dropping all the FW400 ports from their Macs, and a few other things that I haven't been too impressed with as well. It doesn't mean I think they don't want to make money. There isn't a corporation in the world who's business plan doesn't involve making MORE money every year. That's capitalism in the free market. It's how the economy works. It's not a conspiracy, it's fact. While I agree that Avid has been slow to provide certain features in PT... to me they are still features, and the software is FAR from unusable without them.

All I'm saying is take a good look at how corporations work before criticizing their business plan. If you don't like it, there are plenty of other companies out there who will welcome your money. It's not a secret, and no one is out to destroy themselves. If Avid doesn't come around, they WILL fail. Fact. I'm sure that isn't in their mission statement.
I would respond with great reason to every one of these points but I'm now bored and frankly it's this kind of thinking that keeps avid and digi from listening to their customer base - hey look some of the dudes are happy -
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  #68  
Old 04-14-2010, 07:36 PM
O.G. Killa's Avatar
O.G. Killa O.G. Killa is offline
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Default Re: Avid buys Euphonix

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr sound View Post
Derek,
You couldn't be further from the mark. You are absolutely wrong.
I too was at NAB and had some very interesting personal conversations with
Avid brass and Euphonix. I am not at liberty to put into print things that were said, but I believe the purchase to be in all of our best interest.
I believe that many changes are coming and they will be great.

As for other console manufactures neither Neve or Harrison were at NAB.
I sat down with SSL and Fairlight. Nice products but for the Post side of things, we have the best options available with this merger.
Marti I really hope you are right. But actions speak so much louder than words. And their actions so far have shown otherwise.
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  #69  
Old 04-14-2010, 07:36 PM
Ray Fabi Ray Fabi is offline
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Default Re: Avid buys Euphonix

Hey, i could be wrong, but let's give Digi the benefit of the doubt here. Why would Digi want to drop Eucon, or why would they not want to sell Euphonix (Eucon) board to Logic users and Nuendo users? Wether they sell an Icon or an MC Pro, they make money, and as a public company, the idea is to sell products and make money right? Why would they just have purchased Euphonix for a pretty penny only to choke Nuendo and Logic users? That just does not make sense! I own an Euphonix MC with 24 faders because of its multi platform capabilities, Eucon and HUI; I compose in Logic, but since Logic's mixing is not up to par (as far as I'm concerned), I mix and edit in Pro Tools which I love. Most of my clients want a PT session, and I'm quite happy to remain in PT for delivery. Now, if my Euphonix MC now could control PT through Eucon in the same fashion it controls Logic or Nuendo, then it's not good news, it's absolutely wonderful news!!!

Let's keep our fingers crossed, but I'm excited.

Congratulations Avid.
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  #70  
Old 04-14-2010, 07:46 PM
Dism Dism is offline
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Default Re: Avid buys Euphonix

Quote:
Originally Posted by lafilmsound View Post
I would respond with great reason to every one of these points but I'm now bored and frankly it's this kind of thinking that keeps avid and digi from listening to their customer base - hey look some of the dudes are happy -
That's unfortunate, because I find this quite entertaining.

Frankly, if you believe that a company isn't listening to their userbase because "some of the dudes are happy" then you are clearly missing the point of business in general.
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