Master faders question

[Thenewexhibit]

I have a question that has been asked before, but I feel like I didn't find a definitve answer after some internet searches.

I'm not the best mixer; I'm clipping my 2 bus aux (go figure), so can I just make a 2 bus master fader, and just pull that down without any degredation to my mix (re adjusting the compressor's gain reduction of course)? I know that is completely the wrong way to go about it; it's better to gain stage properly, but the mix is a little hot with occassional clips on trainsients, so I want to get it down to a reasonable level for a mastering engineer without messing up all of my parallel compression levels and everything else and keep a better eye on it next time. Does this work in theory exactly as if I were to just pull back all of the individual faders, or are there consequences?

Thanks!

Mike.

[Inglesworth]

This will technically work. Though, as you said, not the recommended way to do it.

Jut be aware that the inserts on the master fader are post fader, where as every other type of track in PT, the inserts are pre-fader. This means if you have a compressor (or other dynamic processor) on your master fader, when you move that fader, you are changing how it may react with the dynamic processor's threshold.

[The Weed]

Can you group the mix - not the Master Fader - and lower the mix?

[teedeecee]

Sounds like you know the answer and as such can’t be THAT bad a mixer

Proper gainstaging is indeed an important aspect to engineering as all devices, be it I/O devices and plugins that are based on analogue models will be designed with a range of gain in mind. Exceeding this will lead to undesired results.

PT redesigned its core audio engine a while back that means internally this gain staging isn’t as crucial as it’s a 32bit floating point architecture. This means you could set up 12 oscillators all generating a 1kHz sinewave at -1dBFS and send them to a AUX channel configured as your Stereo bus and the bus will not distort. If you then send this Stereo out a physical output you only then hear distortion. This is because the headroom of the internal buses exceeds the headroom of the outputs. Most likely your master output is representing 24bit D/A, and thus is limited to around 144db of dynamic range, whereas the PT internal engine is in the vicinity of around 1500db!

You should grab a cup of tea or coffee and sit down and do some playing with this to see what is happening. It’s fascinating and quite revolutionary.

Tony

[Inglesworth]

Originally Posted by The Weed

Can you group the mix - not the Master Fader - and lower the mix?

This will not have the desired effect. It will change the relative levels of the mix because the decibel is a logarithmic measurement. If you have HD and can use a VCA fader, that would be the way to go honestly. I made my original reply assuming that the OP was not working in HD, but they might be. The VCA fader will preserve the relative balance of all of your tracks as well.

[Thenewexhibit]

Cool!!! Thanks, everyone, for your replies!

I'm on 12.5.2. It's vanilla, but I have VCA's. That being said, using VCA's to turn everything down instead of grouping all faders would yeild different results from each other?

Also, does that mean I could create a new master fader which is routed to my 2 bus, and turn down the level going into the 2 bus with that 2nd master fader without any degredation to the mix? Also, I have no processing on my master faders, just on the 2 bus, which I would then reset the threshold to my 2 bus compressor. The architecture does seem very facsinating, but I'm afraid diving into would lose me

I hope all of that made sense, and thanks everyone for your replies!

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by Thenewexhibit

Cool!!! Thanks, everyone, for your replies!

I'm on 12.5.2. It's vanilla, but I have VCA's. That being said, using VCA's to turn everything down instead of grouping all faders would yeild different results from each other?

Also, does that mean I could create a new master fader which is routed to my 2 bus, and turn down the level going into the 2 bus with that 2nd master fader without any degredation to the mix? Also, I have no processing on my master faders, just on the 2 bus, which I would then reset the threshold to my 2 bus compressor. The architecture does seem very facsinating, but I'm afraid diving into would lose me

I hope all of that made sense, and thanks everyone for your replies!

Turn down each individual track except the master faders by the same amount. Start with .5dB per track and then maybe go to 1dB for all if the lower level doesn't help. Readjust the threshold on your 2-bus compressor and you should be good to go.

[cshaw]

I’ve always been a believer in proper gain staging (it’s a good working practice) but the internal headroom in PT is massive. Assigning a master fader to your Mix bus / aux is totally ok. Don’t put any processing on it for the reasons described in previous posts.


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[albee1952]

Yes, pulling down all the faders(ALL group enabled) works, but I prefer to keep most faders near the range of -0 so I have plenty of plus and minus for mixing.

Yes, using a VCA will pull things down(and I did this for a while) but it goes against what I just wrote about faders, AND it adds another layer of automation that can sometimes fight you(learned the hard way), so its just not a good option(it IS a great way to control a group of tracks, just not a great way to make them all softer).

My solution: I have the TRIM plugin in the last slot on every AUDIO and INSTRUMENT track, all set to -10. They are all in bypass while tracking(so headphone mixes stay loud for the players). Once I get to mix time, I enable them all(Alt-Ctrl-click on one and all follow). AUX tracks don't need the trim as they are fed(usually) by POST-fader sends(so they follow what they receive from audio and instrument tracks). As a little "cheat" I set my TRIM plugin to default to -10 so I don't need to set each and every one, or Alt-drag constantly.

[Courtlaw]

Hi Mike

If you get a chance and have the money to spare, sign up for a year's subscription to Mix with the Masters and watch one of Andrew Schep's videos. He mixes 100% in the box and he shows you awesome template with VCA's and master fader which controls level before it hits the print buss.

There are so many good videos at that website