Plugins / Delay Compensation / Timing / Downbeat [PT-263943]

[RTGraham]

Avid has confirmed that they can reproduce the problematic behavior, so now it's a function of when they're able to actually address it and what kind of priority it gets in comparison to whatever other bugs need squashing.

This has been a useful conversation - thanks everyone for the insights and for helping me figure out that it wasn't just random.

[bolooki]

Hey all - just to bump this if you use LFO tool:

Seems that disabling plug in delay (right click top delay comp number in mix window and select "Disable Plugin Delay") then freezing the track with LFO Tool will avoid delay comp timing issues. I verified this using a signal generator plugin and zooming in, and it works within 2 samples. Not sure what was adding the samples but that is negligible.

Another work around to get it perfect was shifting midi notes used to trigger the envelope later by exactly the amount listed in the delay comp on the track LFO Tool is on, then freezing that track (if needed). This got it sample accurate. To mimc the internal LFO (ie 1/4 notes), you can draw out 1/4 midi notes and shift those. Shifting the midi ahead by samples is more precise vs. using midi real time properties to shift by ms or ticks (ticks can get close though).

hope that helps. My bass ducking with LFO is finally on point and predictable. I am not sure I full understand what disabling plugin delay on a track does when you have delay comp on, but in this case it is a good work around. If anyone finds anything else- please chime in.

(using PT ultimate 2020.9.1 & apogee symphony.)

[JingleDjango]

Thanks for sharing, bolooki. Did you try this with LFOTool inserted on a subgroup AUX or routing folder? That's my typical configuration.

[Franklyn]

deactivating plug in delay on an aux doesnt work here with LFO

Avid, please, please, please do something !

I have to work all day with duck, LFO Tools, ... and its absolute frustrating when ProTools ADC makes volume cure offset changes all the way.

I ask myself how other EDM/Pop producer can work with this bug.

[XJENSEN]

Originally Posted by Franklyn

I ask myself how other EDM/Pop producer can work with this bug.

Exactly, my question as well.

They really should address this problem.

[bolooki]

They use ableton- you can route midi wherever you want and it’s always on time.

Just tested this setup using addictive drums sending its kick midi in real time to LFO on a bass track, works perfectly. When you commit the track it appears sample accurate as well.

Atleast with pro tools you can adjust the timing manually or customize it if you want. (That’s really the only upside here though)

[RTGraham]

Originally Posted by bolooki

Hey all - just to bump this if you use LFO tool:

Seems that disabling plug in delay (right click top delay comp number in mix window and select "Disable Plugin Delay") then freezing the track with LFO Tool will avoid delay comp timing issues. I verified this using a signal generator plugin and zooming in, and it works within 2 samples. Not sure what was adding the samples but that is negligible.

Another work around to get it perfect was shifting midi notes used to trigger the envelope later by exactly the amount listed in the delay comp on the track LFO Tool is on, then freezing that track (if needed). This got it sample accurate. To mimc the internal LFO (ie 1/4 notes), you can draw out 1/4 midi notes and shift those. Shifting the midi ahead by samples is more precise vs. using midi real time properties to shift by ms or ticks (ticks can get close though).

hope that helps. My bass ducking with LFO is finally on point and predictable. I am not sure I full understand what disabling plugin delay on a track does when you have delay comp on, but in this case it is a good work around. If anyone finds anything else- please chime in.

(using PT ultimate 2020.9.1 & apogee symphony.)

Sorry - never replied to this because I hadn't had a chance to try any of it, but I've been thinking about it a bunch and now this thread has some activity again - so -
In a quick experiment inside an existing session, toggling overall delay compensation didn't seem to fix timing mistakes in an LFOTool instance, BUT it looks like what you're describing is the ability to turn off just an individual plugin's compensation, which I hadn't realized was possible. I'll have to try that when I get a second.

And -
I completely forgot that it's possible to trigger LFOTool's action with MIDI notes. I've largely gotten out of the habit of sending MIDI into audio plugins (as opposed to virtual instruments), mainly because simply routing the MIDI can induce these kinds of timing discrepancies - but this is a great workaround, where it's possible to see the latency amount and compensate the MIDI triggers accordingly.

[RTGraham]

Originally Posted by XJENSEN

Exactly, my question as well.

They really should address this problem.

Originally Posted by bolooki

They use ableton- you can route midi wherever you want and it’s always on time.

Exactly. I think largely this issue has skated by, as far as Pro Tools goes, because PT isn't the environment of choice for many EDM producers.
And there are a number of reasons why... other applications (Ableton, Logic, FL Studio, etc.) all have their own personality and vibe and workflow, and lend themselves to different ways of thinking and working.
Even though we're primarily PT-based here, just because for us ultimately everything winds up as audio and we work quickest with editing and mixing and automation in PT, we do sometimes start a project in one of those other environments, if only to stimulate a different thought process than our typical habitual patterns.

But because this type of production has become so prevalent, and as a result we're now seeing a proliferation of plugins suited towards it, and because those plugins have become somewhat standard inclusions in various producers' and engineers' Pro Tools setups, it means that PT needs to be able to keep up. So yes, Avid really should address this now that it's no longer a non-issue.
(And hopefully, that's what's being worked on.)

[RTGraham]

Originally Posted by JingleDjango

I noticed that engaging LFOTool on my sub-groups (folders in my case) nullifies the track compensation value of the aux, throwing off the timing of everything feeding that bus. I uploaded a short video to demonstrate:

https://youtu.be/z_4ZnhjyAQs

RTGraham, have you observed the same behaviour in your setup? How can we conclude that this is a DAW malfunction or an error by 3rd party developers?

I paid $40 for an ASC in an attempt to call attention to this problem but despite my best efforts I have yet to make contact with a Pro Tools support specialist. In the meantime I'm losing money and client trust.

I'm looping back around to this, as the issue is still very much present in PT 2020.12.

Your video highlights something interesting, and while I haven't yet tried to duplicate it with something like AIR Pumper (which is probably as close as we're going to get to non-3rd-party on this issue), it brings another possible factor to mind.
The other time that I've seen PT attempt to selectively nullify delay compensation is when a track is record-armed. For example (and I need to go back into a test session to verify this, but this is my recollection), if I have an instrument track that ordinarily would have compensation enabled, but I record-arm that track for realtime MIDI playability, I believe PT temporarily disables the track's compensation to make it playable in realtime.

Is it possible that timing-dependent plugins like LFOTool are somehow triggering the PT engine to think that they should be treated like realtime MIDI record enabling?

[XJENSEN]

This is a complete mess. Still hoping AVID will pick this up one day or another...