Sample Rounding Issue!!!!

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by Rich Breen

Can't really tell 'cause the screenshots are too fuzzy, but are your tracks' timebases set to samples or to ticks?

Yup - those screenshots are useless. Looks like I got mayo smeared on my glasses

[foxes]

Originally Posted by Rich Breen

Can't really tell 'cause the screenshots are too fuzzy, but are your tracks' timebases set to samples or to ticks?

The screenshots are screen capture jpegs using the ‘capture’ app on my iMac. They had to be resized using the ‘preview’ app as the were too big in height & width plus KB to meet this forums image upload limit.

I will try again when I return to my studio on Monday to show you guys clearer images.

The timebase is set to ticks but the issue happenes if set to samples as well.

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by foxes

The screenshots are screen capture jpegs using the ‘capture’ app on my iMac. They had to be resized using the ‘preview’ app as the were too big in height & width plus KB to meet this forums image upload limit.

I will try again when I return to my studio on Monday to show you guys clearer images.

The timebase is set to ticks but the issue happenes if set to samples as well.

One remedy to get hi-res pictures on here is to host them on a site and then put the link in a post here.

[foxes]

Originally Posted by musicman691

One remedy to get hi-res pictures on here is to host them on a site and then put the link in a post here.

Ok thanks, I will try that if I cannot get the images clearer

[ejsongs]

i use studio one and pt hdx daily. the gui in pt is better and is more snappy. I still prefer mixing in pt and have a lot of $$$ invested in their hardware and software. there is no better game in town for low latency and analog hardware integration.

But studio one 4.5 has me thinking...many of the new updates are features that kept me out of using studio one as my main daw. Transferring files from s1 to pt is a piece of cake. S1 will render the entire session completely with time stamped audio files with just a few clicks of the mouse. That is what drew me to studio one and had me leave logic. it significantly cut down my time in transferring files by at least 90%.

ej

[Rich Breen]

Originally Posted by foxes

...The timebase is set to ticks but the issue happenes if set to samples as well.

Sample rounding will *always* occur if the track is set to *samples* and the samples to tick ratio is not a whole number - IOW, you really need to be working with tick-based tracks or you will more-than-likely (though not necessarily) have sample rounding issues. If you create a clip on a track in "samples" mode that is 1/4 note long, it is unlikely to actually be exactly 1/4 note in ticks (because you're using a sample time base) - the "samples" time base though is very important to any of us working on non-tempo-grid based material (non-grid based music, time code based material, etc).

If you are in "ticks" mode, and your clips are created to be for example exactly 1/4 note then they will act correctly and you shouldn't have a problem. Pro Tools allows users the flexibility to have multiple timebases working in a single session and to move tracks freely between sample and tick timebase - I suspect that the people having problems with this have either created or edited clips on a track in "samples" mode and then changed it to "ticks" mode and expect everything to work just fine - it usually will not. I'd be very curious to see an example of sample rounding error on a tick based track with material that's been created or conformed to the tick grid - not saying it's not possible that there's a bug, but I'd want to see it.

[PMF Media]

"But studio one 4.5 has me thinking...many of the new updates are features that kept me out of using studio one as my main daw. Transferring files from s1 to pt is a piece of cake. S1 will render the entire session completely with time stamped audio files with just a few clicks of the mouse. That is what drew me to studio one and had me leave logic. it significantly cut down my time in transferring files by at least 90%"

Um, Logic does the "exact" same thing (unless I'm missing your point) I use it with every piece of music I make... I do all the MIDI/instrument recording in logic and then export everything as audio files and do all the mixing in PT, works a treat!

As for the sample rounding issue, well, it's been with us since version 11 (64 bit re-code) and is a PITA but one that I've just had to become used to and find suitable work arounds, it may just my imagination but it appears to be more "pronounced" in 2019.5

[foxes]

Originally Posted by Rich Breen

Sample rounding will *always* occur if the track is set to *samples* and the samples to tick ratio is not a whole number - IOW, you really need to be working with tick-based tracks or you will more-than-likely (though not necessarily) have sample rounding issues. If you create a clip on a track in "samples" mode that is 1/4 note long, it is unlikely to actually be exactly 1/4 note in ticks (because you're using a sample time base) - the "samples" time base though is very important to any of us working on non-tempo-grid based material (non-grid based music, time code based material, etc).

If you are in "ticks" mode, and your clips are created to be for example exactly 1/4 note then they will act correctly and you shouldn't have a problem. Pro Tools allows users the flexibility to have multiple timebases working in a single session and to move tracks freely between sample and tick timebase - I suspect that the people having problems with this have either created or edited clips on a track in "samples" mode and then changed it to "ticks" mode and expect everything to work just fine - it usually will not. I'd be very curious to see an example of sample rounding error on a tick based track with material that's been created or conformed to the tick grid - not saying it's not possible that there's a bug, but I'd want to see it.

All my sessions are tick based from creation & still the issue persists. This is definitely a bug with PT. Midi clips ramdonly (at multiple tempos and I have read somewhere that it doesn’t happen on certain tempos that fit into a particular mathematical sample base equation) do not line up correctly sometimes cutting off midi notes or the notes extend beyond the clip. This happens whether you use duplicate, repeat or alt + manully drag.

[midnightrambler]

Originally Posted by Rich Breen

I'd be very curious to see an example of sample rounding error on a tick based track with material that's been created or conformed to the tick grid - not saying it's not possible that there's a bug, but I'd want to see it.

I concur with the original poster that it definitely exists, and here is a way to artificially create it. This isn't a "real world" example, obviously, but it might go some way to explaining why the problem can occur.

Here's a video : https://youtu.be/jvlz8eDFZIs

1. New session
2. New MIDI track
3. Create 4 bar clip
4. Now zoom right in and pull the clip in (or out) ever so slightly. The edit section length will still register as *exactly* 4 bars
5. Now go to duplicate the 4 bars and watch the clips eventually drift off the grid.

Obviously to a certain extent this is expected behaviour; the problem is that "edit section length" isn't accurate enough to be able to see if you have *exactly* 4 bars or some tiny fragment more or less. This "rounding error" may be exacerbated with certain combinations of tempos and sample rate of course.

[innesireinar]

Originally Posted by foxes

All my sessions are tick based from creation & still the issue persists. This is definitely a bug with PT. Midi clips ramdonly (at multiple tempos and I have read somewhere that it doesn’t happen on certain tempos that fit into a particular mathematical sample base equation) do not line up correctly sometimes cutting off midi notes or the notes extend beyond the clip. This happens whether you use duplicate, repeat or alt + manully drag.

Yes, definitively occurs on tracks in tick as well.