11R + QSC K10 = Too much high end?

[Deny]

Is it just me or does anyone else hear more high end with this combination than a given mic+cab combination should produce? For some reason the high end content with 11R + K10 doesn't sound right to my ears, and I'm not really talking about fizz.

I wouldn't like to have to tame the highs with the PEQ for two reasons, 1) I shouldn't have to, and 2) I feel the PEQ takes a bit of the "punch" away, so I avoid using it at all costs.

Mind you, I love the 11R and am just nitpicking, you know how it is when you've spent enough time with a piece of gear

[blewis]

What listening environment do you use to create patches? The K10?

It seems bright to me too, but I'm guilty of adjusting patches with headphones. :-(

[Deny]

Originally Posted by blewis

What listening environment do you use to create patches? The K10?

It seems bright to me too, but I'm guilty of adjusting patches with headphones. :-(

Yep, I always use the K10 at a fairly loud volume for creating patches, and keep it pointed at a 45 degree angle from where I stand. My point is, as bright as the K10 might be, it shouldn't reproduce frequencies that would have been completely cut off with a real off-axis SM57 plus cab. IMHO of course.

[moff]

I have a K-12, and it seems OK. I used four different sets of headphones to dial up my patches: AKG 141, Bose QC-15, a cheap pair of Sonys, and my Shure E-5 in-ears. Then I fine-tuned with my K-12s. The end result is that it translates well to both onstage and FOH applications.

I did find some patches REALLY benefited from using the speaker break-up function. Set to around 3 (IIRC), that smoothed out some of the upper-end "fizzies".

Secondly, don't choose your head\cab\mic by name, but by sound. Scroll through the 4x12s until you find one that's close to what you want, regardless of its name. Your 4x12 with Greenback 25s probably sounds a LOT different than the one they modeled. And do the same with mics and placement. Find a mic that comes close to sounding like what you want, again regardless of its name. For example, the SM57 in the 11R is a model of an older model, not the more modern SM57. Some people hate it because it doesn't sound "right". And your mic choice has only "on axis", meaning centre-placed, and "off axis", meaning placed off-centre (BTW, "off axis" is incorrect terminology for off-centre placement - in the real world, "off axis" means a mic that's placed on an ANGLE with respect to the source, not one that's placed off-centre or at the edge of the speaker). There is no way to adjust the AMOUNT of off-centered-ness, nor the distance the mic is "placed" from the cab.

Just experiment, and use your ears. You may find that what comes closest to your idea of a real-world Plexi with Greenback 4x12 and an SM 57 in front, is actually a DC800, with a Classic 60 4x12 cabinet, and a U89 mic.

[Hotcrazyfruit]

Is it due to the Fletcher Munson effect?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

The high end of the patch you create at a spl will be louder at a high spl I believe. Maybe I got it all wrong and backwards Its been a few months since I read those acoustics text books.

Nick

[Deny]

Originally Posted by Hotcrazyfruit

Is it due to the Fletcher Munson effect?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

The high end of the patch you create at a spl will be louder at a high spl I believe. Maybe I got it all wrong and backwards Its been a few months since I read those acoustics text books.

Nick

The Fletcher Munson effect is always a factor, my initial observations take it into consideration - even at the SPL levels I'm auditioning my patches I still think there's too much "air".

Originally Posted by moff

I have a K-12, and it seems OK. I used four different sets of headphones to dial up my patches: AKG 141, Bose QC-15, a cheap pair of Sonys, and my Shure E-5 in-ears. Then I fine-tuned with my K-12s. The end result is that it translates well to both onstage and FOH applications.

I did find some patches REALLY benefited from using the speaker break-up function. Set to around 3 (IIRC), that smoothed out some of the upper-end "fizzies".

Secondly, don't choose your head\cab\mic by name, but by sound. Scroll through the 4x12s until you find one that's close to what you want, regardless of its name. Your 4x12 with Greenback 25s probably sounds a LOT different than the one they modeled. And do the same with mics and placement. Find a mic that comes close to sounding like what you want, again regardless of its name. For example, the SM57 in the 11R is a model of an older model, not the more modern SM57. Some people hate it because it doesn't sound "right". And your mic choice has only "on axis", meaning centre-placed, and "off axis", meaning placed off-centre (BTW, "off axis" is incorrect terminology for off-centre placement - in the real world, "off axis" means a mic that's placed on an ANGLE with respect to the source, not one that's placed off-centre or at the edge of the speaker). There is no way to adjust the AMOUNT of off-centered-ness, nor the distance the mic is "placed" from the cab.

Just experiment, and use your ears. You may find that what comes closest to your idea of a real-world Plexi with Greenback 4x12 and an SM 57 in front, is actually a DC800, with a Classic 60 4x12 cabinet, and a U89 mic.

That's a very good point, there's no way of knowing what Avid considers "off-axis mic placement" in the 11R. In my experience it's a beta 57 at a 45 degrees angle parallel to one side of the cone pointing at the other side near the center, and about 2 inches away from the speaker. Not saying this is better or worse than anyone else's just that it's how it translates best my favorite listening position from an amp. It's very likely that if Avid ever releases an ERXP with custom IRs I'll be able to load one that suits me.

[Chris Townsend]

Hi Deny, one thing you might want to try is putting the speakers on the floor as you would with an actual guitar cab. This will put you even farther of axis from the tweeter. Speakers tend beam at high frequencies. It's amazing how bright most guitar cabs are if you put your ear right in front of the speaker. Also, the floor bounce will tend to reinforce the low end.

[moff]

Originally Posted by Deny

The Fletcher Munson effect is always a factor, my initial observations take it into consideration - even at the SPL levels I'm auditioning my patches I still think there's too much "air".



That's a very good point, there's no way of knowing what Avid considers "off-axis mic placement" in the 11R. In my experience it's a beta 57 at a 45 degrees angle parallel to one side of the cone pointing at the other side near the center, and about 2 inches away from the speaker. Not saying this is better or worse than anyone else's just that it's how it translates best my favorite listening position from an amp. It's very likely that if Avid ever releases an ERXP with custom IRs I'll be able to load one that suits me.

In the real world (live), I've traditionally used an SM57 or E906 (used to use an MD409 until it went missing ), and occasionally an MD421 placed 3 inches in from the surround, angled about 20 degrees off axis, toward the surround, and right on the grill.

The other thing some people (myself included) have a hard time internalizing is that the 11R isn't supposed to sound like the amp in the room with you; it's supposed to sound like you're listening to a miced amp from the control room.

Originally Posted by Hotcrazyfruit

Is it due to the Fletcher Munson effect?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

The high end of the patch you create at a spl will be louder at a high spl I believe. Maybe I got it all wrong and backwards Its been a few months since I read those acoustics text books.

Nick

The Fletcher-Munson curve shows that high and low frequencies are less audible to humans at low SPL, with midrange being more pronounced, which is why stereos have a "loudness" control, that boosts the high and low frequencies. Patches created at low levels will be sort of scooped - very bass-heavy, with too much high end when played at louder volumes.

[Hotcrazyfruit]

Originally Posted by moff

In the real world (live), I've traditionally used an SM57 or E906 (used to use an MD409 until it went missing ), and occasionally an MD421 placed 3 inches in from the surround, angled about 20 degrees off axis, toward the surround, and right on the grill.

The other thing some people (myself included) have a hard time internalizing is that the 11R isn't supposed to sound like the amp in the room with you; it's supposed to sound like you're listening to a miced amp from the control room.



The Fletcher-Munson curve shows that high and low frequencies are less audible to humans at low SPL, with midrange being more pronounced, which is why stereos have a "loudness" control, that boosts the high and low frequencies. Patches created at low levels will be sort of scooped - very bass-heavy, with too much high end when played at louder volumes.

At least im half right

Nick

[Deny]

Thanks for the reminder Chris, I did have my K10 at ear height. Because of space constraints I can't put it on the floor but lowering it a bit did help. Surprisingly what seemed to get rid of most of that annoying shimmer was lowering the high cut on the dynamic delay from 2.2kHz to 1kHz, go figure. Still need to confirm this, new settings are only good in my book if they're consistent throughout at least a few sessions, fresh ears are key.