5.1 Music Mixing Techniques-Am I Crazy?

[Wyn]

First, this is not supposed to sound like a rant. I sincerely would like some advice or further information from anyone with experience and knowledge in this area.

Over the past 15 years or so I've done about fifty 5.1 music mixes. Most accompanied by video, some as music only products. Almost every time I have delivered a mix directly to a DVD authoring house, an editor or post house doing the final conform, I get the same questions. Where is the center channel information? How come there is nothing on the LFE channel?

Use of the Center Channel

I do not put vocals, snare drums, kick drums, bass guitars or solo instruments in the center channel. In fact my 5.1 mix pallet by default has the center channel percentage set to zero. This is a creative decision based on a number of factors, not the least of which is that I don't want elements of the mix (particularly vocals) isolated from the rest of the music or any stereo effects that may be employed. The other primary reason is that most consumer HTS systems do not match the center speaker to the main L/R speakers. Therefore, I try to avoid any mix distortions that may occur due to that limitation at final delivery stage. If there is spoken word content, I set the surround panner's center percentage to 100% and pan as necessary. Almost everything else uses a phantom center.

Here is the question; Is there some compelling reason to use the center channel? For instance does the DOLBY E or DOLBY DIGITAL bit stream get confused if there is no center channel information? Or is there some other compelling technical reason to excite
the center channel with level? I don't want to even talk about DOLBY PROLOGIC I/II. Those systems are impossible for a dedicated music mixer to contend with. To this day every project I turn in gets the same question; "why is there no audio on the center channel?" I just tell them, "I don't use it." But I always get the feeling the guy on the other end of the conversation doesn't get it or alternately feels like I don't know what I'm doing.

USE of the LFE Channel

From the start I have used a calibrated surround setup with bass management and redirection as part of my mixing environment. I do not direct music elements to the LFE channel; no kick drums, or bass or whatever. I set up my system with the proper offsets and let the bass redirection to the sub tell me what I should be doing with the low end of the music elements. Sometimes I will direct show elements, i.e. explosion or SFX or something else that needs some punctuated low end excitement or rumble, but generally no music, at all.

When I deliver a mix to a DVD author, editor or Post facility I almost ALWAYS get asked, "How come there is nothing on the LFE channel?" To which my immediate response is, "Are you listening to the 5.1 audio assets through a system with bass management?" So far, the answer has always been, "No." And I am always surprised and in my head I'm saying "WFT?!" But I understand why they are asking; where's the low end? What I want to say is, "Make a DVD, even a crappy one, take it home and play it on your standard $500 Sony HTS bought at Costco and you'll find out where the low end is. Its summed from the other five channels of audio (4 channels in my mixes ;-| ) elevated by about +10db and directed to your subwoofer. But I don't say that, I say, "I don't use it except for low frequency effects." But again, I always feel like I'm getting the same reaction about the LFE channel I get about the center channel; "This guy is a kook."

I'm seriously looking for some enlightenment here, if there is any that can be offered. Or is this just my own personal problem?

Thanks

[nucelar]

I know several professionals who have done surround music mixes on the highest level here in Europe. Center channel is never used these days.
LFE channel is used only in pop/rock style music, placing exclusive sounds there, and only on those projects which would require it. Of course stereo mixdown compatibility is paramount.
On classical, LFE is not used. Surrounds contain just auditorium audience.
As far as I know you are doing everything right, for the reasons you self expose.
Cheers!

[Wyn]

FWIW, I always do a distinct mix for standard L/R stereo. It is amazing to me how often this part of the process gets messed up and some kind of downmix or the L/R Surround channels inadvertently get used as the Stereo version but I keep trying.

thanks for your comment.

[Pete Gates]

A friend of mine had this a few years ago with a 5.1 mix for a TV show that he delivered where he hadn't used the LFE at all. It was thrown back at him, when I spoke to him he said the nature of the material didn't lend itself to action movie type LFE use so hadn't used it. He was put in the position of just putting some in so the bargraph on the LFE channel would flicker keeping the "quality assessment" people happy. Crazy.

You'll just have to educate them I guess!

Just wanted to clarify a couple of points though, as I'm not sure I read it right in your first post. Larger post rooms won't use bass management in their monitoring - in fact Dolby mandate against it, the 3 main channels all have to be capable of full audio bandwidth reproduction. Also, bass management is not a sum of the 5 channels then raised by 10dB. The LFE channel, which is a discrete channel and has nothing to do with bass management/redirection, has 10dB in band gain. The bass management level/phase is set to extend the bass end of the main monitors smoothly (no bump/dip at crossover point) and at the same level on a spectrum analyzer. It should not be set to give a big bass hump.

Pete

[Greg Malcangi]

There's a lot of people who haven't yet quite grasped the differences in surround sound systems. But it's strange that the post houses you've dealt with haven't got it.

I completely agree with your use of the LFE. Try explaining it like this: "Why do you want information in the LFE channel when almost no one owns an LFE?" When they look at you blankly, tell them that home cinema surround sound systems are not sold with an LFE but with a sub woofer, a different thing all together. OK, so it's blurring the edges a bit but it does make it easier for them to understand and for you to explain about bass management.

As far as the centre channel is concerned, I tend to use it, except for incidental music when it makes the re-recording engineers job a little easier if you leave the centre free for dialog and/or Foley. With a purely music product though, I feel it's a personal thing. I sometimes use the centre vs phantom centre as a subtle type of effect. There is no rule AFAIK which states you must use the centre for DD or Dolby E. Film has fairly strict guidelines but music is and should be far more flexible.

All DVDs, BluRays and HDTV should be in my opinion 5.0 mixes (rather than 5.1) but most bigger commercial post houses are stuck with 5.1 and most smaller operations are stuck with 5.0 systems. I have a system which I can switch between 5.1 and 5.0 but it takes some recalibration.

I think this situation of mis-understanding surround is only set to get worse as 7.1 starts to become more common!

G

[SBP]

OK I'll dive in here -for what its worth here is what I think.

Center channel -It is good to use it for musical elements -but stay out of the way of Dialog. It can be very helpful to the music track and improve the image and also the image in the downmix -so don't as a rule dump it. I'm using the center less for Bass and Kick now -often now days I prefer the virtual center for these elements (but no hard rules right!) Choir and Strings and Brass spread well through the LCR -also vocal and some musical lines sit well in the center. One thing I have been enjoying lately is to have vocal as center -then as music moves from being the focus to being support moving the vocal out of the center and into LR -this way the vocal is up front when you need it and also can stay present but is out of the way of dialog when you don't want it to be the main focus -and the transition can be performed in a way that is not at all distracting. I think it is important to be carful about how much reverb is in the center this can be mud not glue.

LFE -I agree there is not much point in overloading the Lfe -it can muddy the scene and reduce its impact when it is required. however it can be fun to use even for music -the key I think is to pick the moments carefully and selectively so that the effect is helping shape the film -ie don't just use it because it helps the cue sound bombastic and fontastic :)

I wouldn't remix a cue just because I hadn't use a channel -if it sounds good it is good.

all the best

Bruno

PS there was a really cool thread on gearslutz awhile back on 5.1 music mixing etc I don't have a link someone else may have time to track it down

[TVPostSound]

Originally Posted by Wyn

USE of the LFE Channel


When I deliver a mix to a DVD author, editor or Post facility I almost ALWAYS get asked, "How come there is nothing on the LFE channel?" To which my immediate response is, "Are you listening to the 5.1 audio assets through a system with bass management?" So far, the answer has always been, "No." And I am always surprised and in my head I'm saying "WFT?!" But I understand why they are asking; where's the low end? What I want to say is, "Make a DVD, even a crappy one, take it home and play it on your standard $500 Sony HTS bought at Costco and you'll find out where the low end is. Its summed from the other five channels of audio (4 channels in my mixes ;-| ) elevated by about +10db and directed to your subwoofer. But I don't say that, I say, "I don't use it except for low frequency effects." But again, I always feel like I'm getting the same reaction about the LFE channel I get about the center channel; "This guy is a kook."


Thanks

I have a $400.00 Onkyo "Theater in the box" that I listen to the shows I've mixed in 5.1.
There is NO bass management when in Dolby AC3 direct mode. LFe information goes to the subwoofer.
There is no other information that goes through this channel.

The low end is NOT summed from the other five.

I do however respect you for not wanting to feed music to the LFe channel.
That channel is called Low Frequency Effect for a reason.

My LFe channel only contains low information from sound effects that I WANT to go to the subwoofer. Or when I create a subharmonic with Lowender or my DBX120.
In regards to music in my mixes, only low frequency that creates an effect, or if I were to use the music as source in a night club.

[mr.armadillo]

While I agree with you on the LFE, I tend to use the center channel in music mixing. I record a lot of classical music with a Decca Tree setup, spreading L C R across the front, and I like it. I just recorded a smaller ensemble using the DPA 5100 as the main mic, and it sounds great when put in all 5 channels.

[Greg Malcangi]

Originally Posted by TVPostSound

I have a $400.00 Onkyo "Theater in the box" that I listen to the shows I've mixed in 5.1.
There is NO bass management when in Dolby AC3 direct mode. LFe information goes to the subwoofer.
There is no other information that goes through this channel.

Just out of curiosity, what happens to all the low frequency content in the main (satellite) speaker channels?

G

[Frank Kruse]

Originally Posted by Wyn

USE of the LFE Channel

From the start I have used a calibrated surround setup with bass management and redirection as part of my mixing environment. I do not direct music elements to the LFE channel; no kick drums, or bass or whatever. I set up my system with the proper offsets and let the bass redirection to the sub tell me what I should be doing with the low end of the music elements. Sometimes I will direct show elements, i.e. explosion or SFX or something else that needs some punctuated low end excitement or rumble, but generally no music, at all.

When I deliver a mix to a DVD author, editor or Post facility I almost ALWAYS get asked, "How come there is nothing on the LFE channel?" To which my immediate response is, "Are you listening to the 5.1 audio assets through a system with bass management?" So far, the answer has always been, "No." And I am always surprised and in my head I'm saying "WFT?!" But I understand why they are asking; where's the low end? What I want to say is, "Make a DVD, even a crappy one, take it home and play it on your standard $500 Sony HTS bought at Costco and you'll find out where the low end is. Its summed from the other five channels of audio (4 channels in my mixes ;-| ) elevated by about +10db and directed to your subwoofer. But I don't say that, I say, "I don't use it except for low frequency effects." But again, I always feel like I'm getting the same reaction about the LFE channel I get about the center channel; "This guy is a kook."

I'm seriously looking for some enlightenment here, if there is any that can be offered. Or is this just my own personal problem?

Thanks

I agree about the LFE. It is intended for low frequency effects and has a +10dB gain in the theatre. It´s not supposed to be used for a "simulated" cross-over LF content of your mix. This is what bass management is for on the consumer end.
The front speakers in the theatre are full range and will handle low frequency content just fine. I wouldn´t recommend to build your own "cross over" when mixing and permanently drive everything below 80Hz to the LFE on your mix.
Your mix will be much less predictable because the woofers in the theaters sound VERY different from one another. Some don´t even have one.

Use the LFE for extreme low frequency effects but not regular bass components of your front..

Cinemas are discrete (no bass management) home theaters are bass-managed in 90% of all cases I would say.

By feeding instruments permanently to the LFE you might end up with unpredictable mud later. Use the LFE for what it´s intended and your mix will be much more compatible.

Having said that I often receive 5.1 music mixes for film that have permanent signal on the LFE channel which turn out to be a low-passed signal from the front. I have no idea if this is some automatic function of Logic but to me it doesn´t make sense. In this case the mixer is trying to print bass management to his mix which doesn´t make sense. It is supposed to happen in the b-chain.

The great sounding music mixes I have received were all 5.0.

frank.