Shelled out for the Waves Bundle, went back to stock plugins.

[GeneRoberts]

I don't get it. After being on this forum for a while, I realized I needed a bunch of plugins, and, instead of paying each time, I just went ahead and got the Waves Platinum Bundle (plus a few other plugins by Waves). I had a mix done with stock plugins and thought the new plugins would help perfect it. After spending a couple of days educating myself about these plugins (watching tutorials, reviews, etc.) I started to replace all the stock plugins I had applied. I tweaked everything meticulously and kept exporting mixdowns along the way.

Now, I am sitting here and doing AB tests between these mixes, before and after the Waves plugins, and I find the mix produced with the stock plugins is a lot more natural and superior in every way. I now have to revert everything back to stock, I'm afraid.

For example, I tried the Waves H-Verb, Abbey Road Plates, TrueVerb, and none of these gave me the natural, forward vocal reverb sounds I got with the stock D-verb (using their room or plate settings). I also found the stock Pro Tools eq to be more serviceable for precision work than the ones coming with Waves. Similarly, the L2 limiter was no improvement over the stock Maxim, and it was simply a waste of time going from one plugin to the next.

Anybody had a similar experience?

[JFreak]

I think it's just a matter of what one is used to be using; an eq is an eq no matter what the skin.

OTOH, IMO you're wrong about L2/Maxim comparison. There is a notable difference in favor of L2 so be happy you have it

Picking the right reverb is a matter of opinion and while I dislike the D-verb it's not bad at all. And the price is right

[Carl Lie]

Most plugins have a trial period. Best to do that before shelling out any money.

C.

[soybalm]

yes, Maxim is far more distorted than L2 for a whole mix. However, I used Maxim on drums and got good results.

[lesbrunn]

Originally Posted by GeneRoberts

I don't get it. After being on this forum for a while, I realized that I needed a bunch of plugins, and instead of paying each time, I just went ahead and got the Waves bundle. I had a mix done with stock plugins and thought the new plugins would help perfect it. After spending a couple of days educating myself about these plugins (watching tutorials, reviews, etc.) I started to replace all the stock plugins I had applied. I tweaked everything meticulously and kept exporting mixdowns along the way.

Now, I am sitting here and doing AB tests between these mixes, before and after the Waves plugins, and I find the mix produced with the stock plugins is a lot more natural and superior in every way. I now have to revert everything back to stock, I'm afraid.

For example, I tried the Waves H-Verb, Abbey Road Plates, TrueVerb, and none of these gave me the natural, forward vocal reverb sounds I got with the stock D-verb (using their room or plate settings). I also found the stock Pro Tools eq to be more serviceable for precision work than the ones coming with Waves. Similarly, the L2 limiter was no improvement over the stock Maxim, and it was simply a waste of time going from one plugin to the next.

Anybody had a similar experience?

Hi Gene,

Correct me if I'm wrong, and this is just a feeling I have, but could it possibly be that in your eagerness to get 'pro' results with your new plugins, you've maybe been a little over-zealous? I know I've been there before.

Depending on the material, sometimes less is more when processing audio. Many experienced engineers would probably do some subtractive EQ first, before boosting if necessary. It's easy to process a track to death especially with EQ and compression, so constant comparison along the way is important. Our ears are good at forgetting what went on before, and they quickly adjust to what's happening now.

I've used Waves for over a decade, and I find many of their plugins quite good. Maybe instead of throwing your Waves plugins away, you could tackle the issue from the perspective that you want to improve on what you had done previously with the stock plugins (they're also quite usable, BTW). With that in mind, I'd probably duplicate the tracks I'm working on and do a constant A&B between stock and Waves. Mind you, your AB should be carried out while processing, not after the fact.

As was said before, it's all a matter of choice and how comfortable you are with your tools. That said, it's still possible to become more and more comfortable with new tools to the point where you may actually prefer some of them to your previous ones. I press all of them (stock and 3rd party) into use depending on what needs to be done and which tool I think is most suitable.

With me for instance, the 7 band stock EQ gets a lot of use, but the Fabfilter Pro Q is more suitable for precision surgery. The waves EQ's also get some love. Many digital EQ's can sound harsh in the higher frequencies, but there are a couple that have a silky smooth high end, so those come into play when that is called for.

[Gemylon]

ProTools stock Plugs are top notch.
If you got good results using them, there is no need to replace them.

I use Waves from time to time, but not as much as I used to.
So many great developers out there ...

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by GeneRoberts

I don't get it. After being on this forum for a while, I realized that I needed a bunch of plugins, and instead of paying each time, I just went ahead and got the Waves bundle. I had a mix done with stock plugins and thought the new plugins would help perfect it. After spending a couple of days educating myself about these plugins (watching tutorials, reviews, etc.) I started to replace all the stock plugins I had applied. I tweaked everything meticulously and kept exporting mixdowns along the way.

Now, I am sitting here and doing AB tests between these mixes, before and after the Waves plugins, and I find the mix produced with the stock plugins is a lot more natural and superior in every way. I now have to revert everything back to stock, I'm afraid.

For example, I tried the Waves H-Verb, Abbey Road Plates, TrueVerb, and none of these gave me the natural, forward vocal reverb sounds I got with the stock D-verb (using their room or plate settings). I also found the stock Pro Tools eq to be more serviceable for precision work than the ones coming with Waves. Similarly, the L2 limiter was no improvement over the stock Maxim, and it was simply a waste of time going from one plugin to the next.

Anybody had a similar experience?

What Waves bundle did you get? I never buy bundles but get the plugins I want. That way I'm not stuck with dogs. I also make liberal use of demo periods for plugins. For instance right now I'm working with H-Reverb (killer sale at Audio Deluxe for ~$41). It's a great reverb for what it does; deep and it takes some time to get used to what everything it does. And that's the rub - you need to spend time & patience with new plugins and don't expect miracles from any presets they come with. There's no such thing as a 'forward vocal reverb' as reverb for the most part puts things in a space.

I have a few 'verbs and each has their own use; there's no one that's suitable for everything. Abbey Road Plates gets heavy use on drums and piano. True Reverb I got as a freebie and seldom gets used. Eventide UltraReverb gets good use and is the one I tend to use sparingly on vocals. Reverberate 2 is a deeply programmable ir reverb and the Fusion ir's have a depth to them you have to experience - they do take some time tweaking to get things so they're not TOO heavy.

Precision eq work with Waves plugins are an oxymoron. Now I don't have every one of their eq's but those I do have don't fit that bill. For precision eq work I use HOFA IQ-EQ; not cheap but worth the bucks when you see what it can do. Back to Waves eq's - I like the ones in the TG12345 strip and REDD console for that 'British' sound.

The moral of my story: Waves has some good stuff - you just need to know what to look for and make use of demo periods.

[JFreak]

Some good stuff, yes.. a couple of my favourites:
- C6
- L3LL Multi
- Dorrough Meters
- SSL Channel
- API2500
- SuperTap

[huzzam]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I have to point out: the thing that you didn't upgrade when you bought the Waves plugins is your own skill (as well as your monitoring environment). Now I don't know anything about how skilled you are, nor about your monitoring system. But: you carefully crafted your first mix to the best of your ability, with the (quite capable) stock tools at hand. Then you tried to do the same with Waves (perhaps overusing the new tools in your excitement) and were disappointed that they didn't provide more "magic." But you're the same engineer, and looking for the same result, only "better"...

In my experience, "better" tools don't necessarily make better mixes than decent tools; they make getting good mixes easier. For example, you can get super fat crunchy analog-style delays with stock PT plugs — just throw some saturation, modulation, & eq after the delay plug in & dial them in, perhaps routing the channel back into itself for the feedback. But if you have (eg, my favorite delay) EchoBoy, you just open it and pick which style you want, or poke around if you're not sure what you want.

That said, I don't argue that there's no point in getting other plugins; in particular reverbs impart such a distinct, present color, and are worth investigating. & a great limiter, a surgical subtractive eq, and a multiband compressor are also very worthy additions to the stock offerings.

A great painter can mix any color from red, yellow, blue, white, and black. But you might still prefer to buy a certain green that you like...

Anyway on your next mix, maybe try working with mostly what you already know well, and pick one or two of your Waves plugs to experiment with. For example, try using the SSL Channel as your only eq/comp on all your tracking channels, and getting really used to that. Keep everything else the same. Or pick one of your new reverbs as the main verb, and have the L2 or SSL Comp on your master bus, at a gentle setting, from the start of your mix. This way you can learn your new tools specifically, and appreciate their colors for what they each offer.

Or else try to get every single new plugin somewhere in your session :)

~peter in athens

[GeneRoberts]

Originally Posted by musicman691

What Waves bundle did you get?

Got the Platinum Bundle + a few separate reverb and some other plugins. And I agree with you. Their eq plugins were so bad I don't see myself ever using them. I'll see if I can find something I like later.

By "forward vocal reverb" I meant having good reverb effect without losing the vocals into the background. For example, this song ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4BfyFCzWCs ) is my reference track, and you'll notice how forward and present the vocal sounds while apparently being heavily processed with reverb (and possibly delay effects). I am trying to achieve the same results with my female vocal track. Whichever reverb plugin I bought (and I probably won't buy more) got me farther and farther away from my goal. Then I got back to the good old D-verb and it got me closest to this effect.