Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Learn & Support


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > Pro Tools Software > Tips & Tricks

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-04-2006, 11:55 AM
JimmyM's Avatar
JimmyM JimmyM is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Rotterdam
Posts: 140
Default Summing device

Anyone any tips for using a summing amp.I have a HD2 Accel with an 96i i/o and a 96i/
Mixing ITB but want to use a summing amp like a Dangerous or upgrade my 8 channel Millenia to a 8ch summing amp to use it with the 96i/o.

Do i need to bounce the whole mix to a stereo file or do i need to put all the channeloutputs to a bus> the output of this bus to a summing amp > outputs of the summing amp to the inputs of the 96i/o and record the stereo input to an seperate stereo audio track in the session??

Anyone any suggestions??
__________________
Jimmy Makhaisingh
Producer Mix/Mastering Engineer
JimJam Studio

iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, Late 2015)
PT11HD
HDX /HD i/o
Magma Thunderbolt 2.0 Chasis 3T
Manley Vari-Mu / MPassive Mastering version
Sonnox bundle / McDsp / FabFilter /
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-05-2006, 03:28 AM
esynce esynce is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 41
Default Re: Summing device

The idea of the summing amp is to allow the mix bus to be summed in Analogue as opposed to digital so what you need to do is ideally use 4 or more stereo busses. Allocate different tracks to the different stereo busses (which are physical stereo outputs) and then the summing amp summs the stereo busses into a stereo mix. You can then record that mix back into your DAW. I had previously been using 8 stereo busses out of my Digi002 (Analog pairs 1+2, 3+4, 5+6 and 7+8 and ADAT output pairs 1+2, 3+4, 5+6 and 7+8) into an Audient Summing buss.
Hope this helps
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-05-2006, 08:11 PM
minister's Avatar
minister minister is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 4,807
Default Re: Summing device

esynce pretty musch described it. a summing device, like th DANGEROUS, takes 8 pairs of ins (16 channels) and sums it to 2. so, you could bus your drums to out 1-2, bas to 3, vocal to 4, guitars to 5-6, keys to 7-8, etc....

then, i re-print that SUM back into Pro Tools.
__________________
Tom Hambleton CAS
Ministry of Fancy Noises
IMDb
Undertone on Facebook
Undertone Custom Sound Libraries

"Groupable markers would be epochal!"
-Starcrash
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-06-2006, 02:23 PM
jtoole jtoole is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 107
Default Re: Summing device

esynce (or anyone else using a summing buss) -

Do you feel like you can hear a clear difference between ITB and analog summing? Have you done any A-B tests to compare?

I'm interested in more feedback on this topic - I've heard things from both sides and I'm still unsure if the difference is very clear. Also, does anyone know what kind of electronics are in a typical passive summing box (no gain, just in/out and sum)... Seems like there can't be much going on there, but companies still charge quite a bit for the boxes. I've seriously considered trying to build one DIY.

Thanks in Advance,
Jt
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-06-2006, 05:00 PM
Bentley Ferrari Bentley Ferrari is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 440
Default Re: Summing device

Quote:
esynce (or anyone else using a summing buss) -

Do you feel like you can hear a clear difference between ITB and analog summing? Have you done any A-B tests to compare?

I'm interested in more feedback on this topic - I've heard things from both sides and I'm still unsure if the difference is very clear. Also, does anyone know what kind of electronics are in a typical passive summing box (no gain, just in/out and sum)... Seems like there can't be much going on there, but companies still charge quite a bit for the boxes. I've seriously considered trying to build one DIY.

Thanks in Advance,
Jt
I'm looking into this, too, Jt. All I can say after months of observing is that there are extremely strong opinions on both sides of the summing equation, so I guess we'll have to decide for ourselves. Bummer. ;-) [Interesting side note: Charles Dye, arguably the ITB "poster boy," makes a pretty strong recommendation FOR using an analog summing bus in the MILAR DVD Kagi is selling--good DVD, I thought. I haven't dug into that portion of his MILAR presntation very deeply, and he may welll be speaking about using a summing bus in a more limited way. I think he offers it as an alternative to the McDSP Analog Channel as a way of gluing the mix together; etc...Someone can correct me.]

My personal bottom line on the issue is this. Why not just buy an analog console? Maybe a used mixing board with some character would be worth looking at. I think so. Names like Soundcraft, Trident...TL Audio, Speck...there might even be something reasonable out there in a Neve or API direction. How about Midas? They have a new, lower priced model out. For what some of these summing buses cost, we might be better off with a vintage mixer.

Until I find a gem for the right price, I think I'll probably buy a Folcrom summing bus (usually see it for around $775, passive, nothing but good news) and tie it back into certain preamps. That may actually be the ultimate solution for me and some other users, depending on the preamps available. If you have some Neves, APIs, Manleys, Telefunken, Siemens or well-made "clones" thereof, or Grace, Millennia or any other fine preamps that please you, then according to the passive summing box advocates, you're set. The pre will be "the sound." Sounds like you already know this, but I just wanted to explain my thinking, or at least where I'm leaning as of today.

Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-07-2006, 08:10 AM
Russ M. Russ M. is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: New England
Posts: 252
Default Re: Summing device

I've always loved the sound of my API 325 summing amps and I sort of miss it since mixing ITB so I've been thinking ... what if I take 2 of them and set them up as unity gain summing amps with just 1 input each and patch them into the master out. Has anyone tried this? Is it worth it?
One of these days I'll get some time and set them up and give it a try.
Maybe they will add just enough of that API sound.
__________________
Mac Pro: 3,1, 8 core, 6GB RAM. OS 10.6.8, Protools 10.3.8 TDM HD2 Accel.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-07-2006, 02:31 PM
punk punk is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Posts: 93
Default Re: Summing device

You can test analog summing in a basic way by creating groups or 'stems' as they say, and sending it out through a dual preamp and record to new tracks. Break up your mix into 2 groups or 'stems' and record them in 2 passes to 2 pairs of stereo tracks and bounce that to disk. Compare it with your latest BTD mix and see which you prefer.

To build a very simple passive summing box you need a pile of resistors, connecters and of course, a box. Check out www.groupdiy.com and search through it and you will find schematics for doing this. You could build a basic folcrom style box for cheap to test passive summing for yourself.

IMHO an analog desk is a great idea but is not cost effective if you only need it for summing.

And while you're at www.groupdiy.com you might just decide to build your own LA2A, or 1176, or SSL bus compressor, or NEVE mic pre, or API eq or.......


byron
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-07-2006, 05:46 PM
Bentley Ferrari Bentley Ferrari is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 440
Default Re: Summing device

Quote:
I've always loved the sound of my API 325 summing amps and I sort of miss it since mixing ITB so I've been thinking ... what if I take 2 of them and set them up as unity gain summing amps with just 1 input each and patch them into the master out. Has anyone tried this? Is it worth it?
One of these days I'll get some time and set them up and give it a try.
Maybe they will add just enough of that API sound.
Oh yeah, baby, now we're talkin the same lingo!!!! Alright, now that you know what a cool cat I am, here is what I can tell you: That's a great idea. I don't know diddly about any of this stuff, Russ, so I rely heavily on the experience and knowledge of others. One of the first things I remember being "taught" when I first got into recording serious music capable of going "platinum" and making lots of money for lots of people (excuse me for a second while I look up some more Google "How-You-Can-Get-Discovered-in-a Forum-or Through-a-Search-Engine-By-Using-These-Keywords"), was that I should use my "good" outboard gear on the Pro Tools master out.

Now i don't own any "summming amps," but the good man I bought the gear from suggested I use any or all of the following: compressors, EQs, and preamps. They don't even have to be "on" as far as compressor or EQ settings go, if you know what I mean. Just some appropriate gain. It may be good enough, in other words, if the final product simply picks up the textural nuances of the analog pipeline.

punk-
Thanks for posting a wealth of info. Looks very Useful. Thanks.

Mike Colucci
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-07-2006, 10:55 PM
Michael James Michael James is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Petaluma, CA
Posts: 132
Default Re: Summing device

Quote:
Why not just buy an analog console?… For what some of these summing buses cost, we might be better off with a vintage mixer.
It depends on what you want to hear. A good, modern summing box will have very low crosstalk and a lot less wire (or traces) than a console. It should also be virtually maintenance-free. Not all of them are created equal. A console will require TLC and will impart it's particular sound to everything you mix.

FWIW I mix ITB sometimes and OTB others, and use a Dangerous 2-Bus (pristinely preserves what you've already got) and a Chandler Mini Rack Mixer (adds Neve-ish mojo) every day that I mix OTB. Despite the conflicting reports, there is an obvious difference between ITB and OTB, and just as huge a difference among the OTB product choices. For example, my initial experiment was to pull all the stops on an ITB mix. The artist and I totally dug it and printed it. Then we went to a room with an SSL 9000J, and went direct out of PT into the 9K at unity gain, introducing the SSL pan pots into the equation, and using PT automation. There was a difference between the ITB and SSL results, and we ultimately chose to master the SSL version, but the difference was subtle. On the other hand, when I use the Dangerous and/or the Chandler, the difference is not subtle--it's huge. Go figure… a $1 Million desk vs. a $3000 or $8000 summing box, and the more affordable route makes the bigger difference. Great results, more clarity, and zero tech time…

Maybe you are--or maybe you're not--better off with an analog console. For me, the choice was obvious.

Quote:
Do you feel like you can hear a clear difference between ITB and analog summing? Have you done any A-B tests to compare?
IMO the biggest gains from OTB mixing are realized not when you merely change your I/O setup and externally sum your stems, but rather when you mix a tune ITB, then compare it to the same tune mixed from the ground up, OTB.
__________________
Michael James
michaeljamesproducer.com
www.IndieProMix.com

System info: PT Ultimate 2019.6 HDX, Mac Pro 5,1 Westmere, OS 10.13.3, UAD2 Octo PCIe, 2x Lynx Aurora16 w LTHD cards, 1x Lynx Aurora(n) 32 ch analog I/O DigiLink, 4x Dangerous Convert-8 (AES via Lynx), Dangerous Convert-2 (AES via Lynx), Dangerous Vonvert AD+, Apogee Big Ben, SSD boot drive, external FW800 audio drives
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-08-2006, 08:34 AM
punk punk is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Posts: 93
Default Re: Summing device

Michael James makes a number of good points. You really have to compare different approaches and decide for yourself. The combinations and possibilities are endless. Do some tests, even simple ones with the outboard gear you currently have, to get some idea for yourself of the differences. Contrary to all the endless debates on this topic, there isn't a 'better' way just 'different' ways. There is nothing 'wrong' with total ITB or BTD mixes. But if you try some different approaches where you sum externally I would be very surprised if you don't prefer some method of external or analog summing.

My opinion of the different methods doesn't matter. You can make a summing device with patch cables and resistors if you can read a schematic. Choose what works and is affordable to your needs.

I love mixing inside PT. Instant recall is such a powerful tool IMHO. With external summing, PT is just an incredible, affordable system.

YMMV

byron
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
ASIO device properties have been changed by the device control panel. medinarawk Third Party Interfaces 5 07-06-2015 02:18 PM
So does adding a Firewire 400 device to Mac device with... JoyMODE101 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 5 09-28-2009 12:12 AM
Cannot use disk device as "playback" device Pro-tools 7.4Mac Matt Darcy 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 4 06-20-2008 07:46 AM
pro tools summing or digital board summing kingz Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac) 9 04-29-2004 12:46 AM
D8B Summing vs. Pro Tools Summing Sound Guy Andy Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac) 10 03-08-2002 04:04 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:29 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com