Upgrade Digi 003 rack?

[KerryCalvert]

I am using Pro Tools 2020 with Native Instruments plugins, mostly Guitar Rig 6.

I am very disillusioned with the quality of the guitar effects this produces. There is no effect that produces decent sustain in the high notes, and most of the effects are heavy distortion and modulations that are boring. Trying to reproduce tones of the major guitarists like Gilmour, Satriani, Van Halen, Carleton, etc seems like a impossibility with this rig.

My 003 is 20 years old now, and rarely used because I have never been happy with what it can do, going back to PT 8.

Since PT 2020 does not officially support the Digi 003, I am considering upgrading my audio interface to a more modern one. Along with the tone weakness, this setup has a lot of problem with hum generated from poor cable ground, in spite of my efforts to follow the normal corrections for this problem.

My question is whether upgrading the audio interface will help me solve the tone quality issues or hum problems. And if it will, what setup (hardware/software) are guitarists using to get a professional sounding rig emulation?

I realize there are many factors, including the guitar, cable quality, power quality, etc. But I have a quality guitar, professionally set up, a Furman regulating power supply that all the equipment gets power from, and quality cables. The constant through all this investment has been Pro Tools, and the 003 rack.

I am obviously missing something.

My assumption is that the tone quality is not a primarily a function of the input signal from the 003, and is more an issue of the plugin software or CPU speed to do the signal processing. But maybe this is wrong, and there is actually signal conditioning happening in the 003 that is poor?

I am using Windows 10, on a 4 core 3.4 Ghz pentium and 16 GB memory.
I have the Digi 003, and a Tascam 8/8 pre-amp. I have tested connecting the guitar directly to the 003 as well as the pre-amp, and there is no difference in the tone quality or cable grounding issues.

My issues are not related to recording, I cannot get a decent sounding guitar platform just from setting up the mix and playing to test the sound.

[wwittman]

Short answer: no

If you’re unhappy with Guitar Rig try demoing other guitar amp and effects software.

[Obsidian Dragon]

First, I would check if your sound from you guitar is fine (yes I read that you have a quality guitar). Is there hum when you play through a guitar amp? If your guitar has single coil pickups, that is known to generate hum. That is why double coil pickups are called "Humbuckers," to defeat the 60 Hertz hum found in single coil pickups. You may need a noise gate or noise suppressor pedal to control the hum when not playing. Is the tone of your guitar to your liking? I'm talking about the unprocessed clean tone through a good sounding clean amp. If not, you need to see what can be done there first. There is an interaction of your guitar plugged into an amplifier that loads the pickups and affects the sound. Plugging your guitar into an interface does not load the pickup the same way. Then check your signal chain. Are you using any pedals, DI, preamps, etc.? Are you running long cable lengths? You may need a buffer to and from your pedalboard. What are you using as monitors for your Protools setup. Small reference monitors don't necessarily sound like four 12" Celestion speakers in a Marshall cab. As you can see, there are many factors affecting your tone, so take your time and evaluate each component to eliminate the cause. When in doubt, simplify your setup.

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by Obsidian Dragon

First, I would check if your sound from you guitar is fine (yes I read that you have a quality guitar). Is there hum when you play through a guitar amp? If your guitar has single coil pickups, that is known to generate hum. That is why double coil pickups are called "Humbuckers," to defeat the 60 Hertz hum found in single coil pickups. You may need a noise gate or noise suppressor pedal to control the hum when not playing. Is the tone of your guitar to your liking? I'm talking about the unprocessed clean tone through a good sounding clean amp. If not, you need to see what can be done there first. There is an interaction of your guitar plugged into an amplifier that loads the pickups and affects the sound. Plugging your guitar into an interface does not load the pickup the same way. Then check your signal chain. Are you using any pedals, DI, preamps, etc.? Are you running long cable lengths? You may need a buffer to and from your pedalboard. What are you using as monitors for your Protools setup. Small reference monitors don't necessarily sound like four 12" Celestion speakers in a Marshall cab. As you can see, there are many factors affecting your tone, so take your time and evaluate each component to eliminate the cause. When in doubt, simplify your setup.

All excellent info. I don't know if the 003 has a high impedance input or not and that's a major issue. You want a 1 meg or higher impedance. Unless your axe has active pickups.


Humbuckers and single coils - if you're trying to match to the guitarist keep in mind that certain axe slingers stayed mainly with one type. Gilmour mainly uses single coils (Strats and Tele's). Larry Carlton is strictly humbucker; there's a reason he's called Mr. 335. EVH was mostly single coils. If you're trying to cover those tones no single guitar will do it. That's why I've got various Strats with either single coils or humbuckers. Not to mention an LP-type with 'buckers.


Amps - Gilmour mainly uses HIwatts and GR has one called a HighWhite which is their emulation. EVH used modded Marshalls in the early years. I think Satch is using Marshalls.


I have GR5 and only used it for Gilmour-type sounds until I got Blue Cat Axiom which can do most anything if you have the time and grit to work with it. It's not the easiest of amp sims to work with. I also have Amplitube 4 and was that a waste - over priced and the sound ain't great. Their Marshalls are the worst in the s/w world.


'Quality guitar'? Exactly what make/model guitar is that? Gibson used to be known as a quality axe but now their stuff is spotty at best.


Been playing guitar since the late 60's and I've chased that tone rabbit all my life and have never stopped experimenting

[cqd]

I'd say your problem is probably guitar rig.. it's a bit ****..
Has the guitar single coils?..is it shielded..

The one plugin I've found that works for single coils unshielded is s gear..

Honestly it's probably not the 003..

[nst7]

I don't think the problem is guitar rig. I have used it in the past with very good results.

I used to have the 003 and the instrument input leaves a lot to be desired. I'm not sure what the answer is in your case.

[KerryCalvert]

Thanks for the reply.
My guitar is an American made Jackson cerca 1998, with Seymour Duncan pickups. There is a "humbucker" and two single coil pickups. Originally came with all Duncan, and after frustration with crappy tone I replaced one of the single coil Duncans with a recommended pickup, which did not change anything.

I have a Fender Deville amp. When I plug in with no pedals the tone is a good clean tone. I have to keep the volume very low because it is deafening when cranked up. So I have never evaluated the tone/buzz/hum at higher volumes.

But based on the amp sounds at low volume, I am lead away from thinking the huge hum problem I have when processing through the 003 originates in the guitar.

I have tried a number of pedals, Tube Screamer, reverbs, chorus, delays, and a pedal similar to a Tube Screamer from a small company that told me they built it for a Fusion/Blues guitarists whose tone I love. But it only produces a tone slightly warmer than the Tube Screamer, and nothing close to what that guitarist sounds like. The company suggest that I would get that tone if I used a Strat, which I tried, to no effect.

I have tried two pre-amps. A Aphex 107 and a Tascam series 8p Dyna. The Aphex is ancient, and I just bought the Tascam a few months ago.

The Tascam dramatically improved the quality of the recordings of acoustic guitar through a mic. But the electric guitar issues I experience with the 003 are equivalent when I run the connection through the Tascam to the 003.

I did try the Amplitube 5 plugins, and found them superior to Guitar Rig 5 and 6. So I just purchased the IK Multimedia Axe I/O which from the specs seems like it will provide a superior electrical interface for the electric guitar with some interesting hardware options for processing the signal, along with a bundle of the Amplitube 5 plugins.

I will update my experience with that when it arrives.

Thanks!

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by KerryCalvert

Thanks for the reply.
My guitar is an American made Jackson cerca 1998, with Seymour Duncan pickups. There is a "humbucker" and two single coil pickups. Originally came with all Duncan, and after frustration with crappy tone I replaced one of the single coil Duncans with a recommended pickup, which did not change anything.

I have a Fender Deville amp. When I plug in with no pedals the tone is a good clean tone. I have to keep the volume very low because it is deafening when cranked up. So I have never evaluated the tone/buzz/hum at higher volumes.

But based on the amp sounds at low volume, I am lead away from thinking the huge hum problem I have when processing through the 003 originates in the guitar.

I have tried a number of pedals, Tube Screamer, reverbs, chorus, delays, and a pedal similar to a Tube Screamer from a small company that told me they built it for a Fusion/Blues guitarists whose tone I love. But it only produces a tone slightly warmer than the Tube Screamer, and nothing close to what that guitarist sounds like. The company suggest that I would get that tone if I used a Strat, which I tried, to no effect.

I have tried two pre-amps. A Aphex 107 and a Tascam series 8p Dyna. The Aphex is ancient, and I just bought the Tascam a few months ago.

The Tascam dramatically improved the quality of the recordings of acoustic guitar through a mic. But the electric guitar issues I experience with the 003 are equivalent when I run the connection through the Tascam to the 003.

I did try the Amplitube 5 plugins, and found them superior to Guitar Rig 5 and 6. So I just purchased the IK Multimedia Axe I/O which from the specs seems like it will provide a superior electrical interface for the electric guitar with some interesting hardware options for processing the signal, along with a bundle of the Amplitube 5 plugins.

I will update my experience with that when it arrives.

Thanks!

What so-called 'recommended' pickup did you change one of the Seymour Duncans to?


Amplitube is possibly the worst choice you could have made as their amp emulations are ****e. Been there and regretted pretty much buying most of what's in there. Their Marshalls aren't good for anything. And the only extra amp library they have that is decent is Fender Collection 1.


And as people have said trying to cop some guitarist's tone is all in the fingers. Try playing one of Larry Carlton's 335's and you won't even sound close to him. Same for Gilmour and one of his Strats. After 50+ years of tone chasing I've given up on trying to do an exact replica of any axe slinger's tone. Or style (which is a HUGE part of their sound). Give one of your target artists your setup and you'll find they sound just like you expect them to sound - IOW 'their sound'.


Like one of Clint Eastwood's movie characters said: a man's got to know his limitations.

[Obsidian Dragon]

Just out of curiosity, are you plugging the electric guitar into one of the 1/4" DI inputs on channel 1-4, or one of the the 1/4" line in for channel 5-8? When you use the Tascam 8P, is it connected to once of the XLR inputs on channel 1-4

It's been quite a few years since I used the Digi002/003 but if I recall, only the XLR inputs on channel 1-4 have mic preamps. The DI inputs on channel 1-4 are line level. The line ins on channel 5-8 are also line level but can be switched between -10 and +4.

This is how I connected my electric guitar. I plugged the guitar into a Mesa Boogie guitar preamp and out to the 003 via an XLR cable to channel 1-4 XLR inputs. At other times I plugged the guitar into a Radial Direct Box and then via XLR to the 003 Channel 1-4 XLR inputs. I always got a good strong signal this way.

Just because a plug is 1/4" does not mean it is instrument level. It may be line level which is a different signal level. The old Mackie mixers got away with this by putting in pres with a wider range that can handle line level to instrument level inputs, but that is not necessarily true with all pro audio gear. I'm suspecting that you might be plugging your guitar into a line-level input rather than a dedicated instrument level input (but I don't remember how that is on the 003. The mic pres on the 003 XLR inputs are relativly transparent and don't do much to enhance the sound. The Fender Deville, on the other hand enhances the sound significantly (that is why it is called a warm and organic tube sound).

As for the hum, it is just an inherent part of single coil pickups. There are some "noiseless" pickups available nowadays, but it sounds like you already upgraded your single coils to something else. Some folks shield the guitar cavity with copper foil tape or paint to minimize the hum. If the hum is cause by a ground loop in the electrical system, most DI's have a ground lift that helps. In a pinch, you can try an A/C adapter with a missing ground plug (note: safety is compromised).

[KerryCalvert]

I took your advice and tried out Amplitube 5 demo plugins. I found these superior to Guitar Rig, and decided to buy the Axe I/O interface from them with the plugin bundle.

I will let you know how that works out.

Thanks!