What are your opinions on "digital performer" against "pt le"?

[cane]

Hi.
I guess this question comes up alot but what hell.
I wanted to know what you guys think of "DP" compared to "PTLE" in terms of ease of use editing /sound etc.
I've got logic gold 4.7,but have not ventured into audio side yet.I do most of my midi sequencing on an mpc300 anyway & just print to pt via midi beat clock.The editing on pt seems much more pricise & easier on pt than logic from what i have seen so far.
so i guess i wanted to get some feedback on dp compares to pt & logic.
thanks in advance
[img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[ernesto]

I beleive 3.0 is now released. Each program has its fans, and both are very good. Bear in mind simply that pro tools is on a different release schedule than dp, cubase or logic, so sooner or later there will be a shiny new pro tools as well like the logic and dp and a while back cubase we've seen. But I wonder is digi going to continue to place artificial limits on their software while not selling an upgrade thats host based and simultaneously not making decent asio and mas drivers hmmm......???????( are the mas drivers any good?the asio ones are **** ??

I like the 001, but motu seems to have a much smaller object stuck up their you know whats regarding host based. 24 tracks!!??!!!! ..oh my throbbing sphincter...bouning to disk is obsolete. I am looking forward to logic 5.0, dumping the 001 for rme. The 001 is very nice, but it just doesnt seem to be their top priority.

[dcornutt]

DP 3 is setup very similar to PTle. It now has a tracks overview window where you can see and edit audio along side of midi.

It still has seperate editing windows as well if you choose to use them.

hmm..comparing audio..PTle is simple..straightforward..and powerful. Things like group edge edit of audio ..etc..are ..as the previous poster metnioned..so basic..you'd wonder why it isn't there? So do the rest of the DP users..as this has been something clamored for ..for some time.

The two apps approach editing differently..and Id say..overall..if you do a lot of hacking and chopping..and rearranging of audio tracks..in the timeline..then..PTle is a more straightforward approach..and is easier to use.

Using DP with PT hardware..and asio drivers..and OMS..is a much different experience than using DP with a MOTU interface and freemidi with a Motu midi i/o.

Using an integrated motu system and MAS/freemidi..works extremely well..and just as reliable..and trouble free as PT is. Performance of the new dual cpu aware DP 3 is amazing. Using DP thru your 001..with OMS..is probably the worst case scenario..all around..as far as midi/timing/latency/and sound quality. The same goes for Digi..using the 001/ptle ..is a much better experience than using it thru asio drivers with other apps.

PT approaces audio and midi as "regions" and playlists. You get region blocks..you can move around..manage..etc. DP uses soundbytes (for any single soundbyte)..and "chunks" for audio sequences (or groups of arranged soundbytes).

Some of use take exception to our composition being referred to as "chunks"
As the name implies.."chunks" is not as elegant a solution..as "regions" and playlists is

But..anyway..the approaches are similar..but very different..with DP having more options and tools..but..PT winning out on ease of use..for most of the basic audio editing/moving..etc..tasks. What that means is..for anything basic that you would do 100 x a day in this scenario..youll find the PT tools..more direct..and well thought out for audio.

Then theres the rest. For PT..thats.not much.
For DP..this would include several different editors..and much more robust tool sets..more inline with PT TDM..such as wiper scroll zoom..where the playhead stays centered and your tracks roll by (only available on TDM PT). Time compress/expand scrub trimmer (only on TDM). Surround sound (only on TDM). movie post tools..including sync offsets (only on TDM).

And ..others that PT doesn't have..like a score window. Also..other unique tools such as polar..a ram based..loop editor..etc.

PTle.is just the opposite. For all its audio simplistic splendor..it has the same dumbfounded omissions on the midi side...as DP has on the audio side. No groove quantize, very small editing environment..with limited viewing options.. very clunky tempo map tools..and archaic OMS. So, basically..DP approaches audio from the midi sequencer side of things..and PTle approaches midi from the audio side of things. You treat midi in PT much like you do audio..and audio in dp much like you do midi. This is the crux of the difference..and viewed this way..makes for a sensible comparision between the two.

My best summary would be to say..DP is more suited for "composing"..with its much more robust midi implimentation and scoreing..etc..and post work as it applies to a composers point of view. Whereas..PTle is more suited for your basic audio engineering/studio type of work. Recording/mixing..and..here..PTle..is lacking considerably to its big TDM brother.

You "can" record/mix and edit audio in DP..and you can do so on much larger projects than PTle can handle. But then..PTle offeres a simpler/more direct approach to this..as well as the ease of transfer to bigger TDM system. One might question..given DP's bent towards "composing" WHY you would need 60 tracks of audio..but..it's there if you need it. DP does have transfer options to TDM systsems..but this involves a much more convoluted process..and expense (digi translater for about 500 bucks)

So..in this regard..if you plan on doing mix/edit and tracking..and taking your files to a TDM for mastering..then PTle..would be the better choice. If you plan on composing, midi/samplers..scoring..etc..and you pretty much produce your own content..then DP is an attractive choice..because it's much more suited to this task. You can still transfer your DP session to TDM..but..depending on how often you do so..having a copy of PTLE around..sure makes things easier.

As far as the future goes..we've seen a couple of updates to PTle already..I think its quite clear..that the focus of it will continue to be in line..with audio/mix/tracking..and NOT midi/composing/post. Thats my opinion anyway.

If your a composer..DP or Logic..is a welcome..and important addition to your toolbox to have. Remmebering..that using these thru Digi hardware..is less than optimum. If you do minimal midi work..and mostly concern yourself..with tracking/recording, mixing, editing audio..etc..then PTle is probably the more elegant solution...because of its ground/root strengths, simplicity..and file/track management and compatibility with TDM. It's simplicity is one of its strengths.

In the end..they are both very similar..but with different approaches. DP 3.0 is very similar now in layout to PTle (check out the screen shots of it). And..it has some very nice features you wont' find in PT..mostly geared towards composing and or working with movies and surround sound..again..from a composers perspective.

So, I'd say..DP has about 75% of the audio function of PT. PT has about 35% of the midi function of DP with DP missing some very basic audio functions (such as the group edit..and PTle missing basic midi functions such as groove quantize..as well as myriad of other tools ..such as scoring..etc..as related to composition) As you can see..if midi is yo thang..this difference is an important factor.

As far as hardware goes..the MOTU stuff really impresses me as far as performance and function as compared to the Digi stuff. It's got wordclock I/O..sync options, you can fly in adat..etc..totally in sync..without buying extra gear..you can expand your system and run 3 i/o off one PCI card..AND..it includes a soundmanager level driver so you can use those great converters in other apps..besides DP.

It's more expensive than the 001 package..to get a total package interface, DP upgrade, motu midi device..would set you back about 1600 bucks. In this regard..the 001 has "value" at its core.

The 001 is still a great system..and a great value..and..becuase of its simplicity and strengths..as well as its compatiblity with bigger TDM..its still a great competitor to all the systems out there on the audio side of things....even not being dual cpu aware nor altivec enhanced and being hobbled by Digi marketing.

If your stuck with your decision..and absolutely want to use PTle/001. Then..buy logic or DP..and just run it as a stand alone app..for midi..etc. Export the midi file..and import it into PTle. (this works quite well).
REassign all your patches..and use PTle to render it out as audio.

You "can" sync the 2 together..or use 001 hardware with the direct i/o driver..but..for me..this has proved to be a much less satisfactory experience..as you loose some of the advantage of both systems individually.

Although..depending on your needs..this might be a good trade off.

If your just getting started with home recording..etc..then the 001 is a GREAT choice. While your learning..it's simplicity will get you going quickly..and the tons of resources for learning PT..will move you along much faster..than trying to wade thru the myriad of options in DP or Logic. This..as noted on Digi's website..is a big selling point of PTle.

As a composer..working mostly with synths and samplers..I find the DP solutions ..using all motu gear..to be a package much more suited the task at hand..of composing. Thats the bulk of what I do. If I don't like the track..I don't hack up the audio and try to "mix it out". I tweak the midi file..and re-record it. You can do the same in PTle..but youll spend twice as much time doing it..and youll be squinting a lot.

I also like the fact that you can upgrade and expand your system without having to completely replace everything..and pay thru the nose.

On the devlopment side of things..MOTU and LOGIC will be in a race to OS X. ..with Logic already announcing products. Digi is gonna have to move slow in this regard...mainly because they are moving 2 things..tdm and host..PC and Mac. I would imagine..that PT will probably be the very last product to make it to OS X..but..that when it does..it will again be one of the best.

Even with PTle being hamstrung with limitations on tracks..etc..and not taking advantage of just about any of the technology advances in mac hardware in the last few years..(altivec, MP, firewire..etc.)..PTle remains..a very respectable, solid performer.

It's also the cheapest way to get a complete home DAW system. Leaving Ptle behind..is probably one of the more difficult decisions I will have to make (my dual 800 will arrive soon).

My guess is..that DP will have audio group edit..long before PTle has groove quantize, a tempo map editor..and seperate full screen midi editing window..surround sound..a smpte timeline..sync offset for QT movies..etc.

But, I look forward to whatever Digi has plans to announce next..and will definately check out what they will be offering...as long as it doesn't cost 10 grand

dcornutt

[drenched]

hey dcornutt

I want to get into a motu card and box because Im not having huge success running DP in Direct I/O and OMS mode. I was told I would have problems with this if I tried to run the motu gear and the 001 on the same computer. So whats the solution 1. get the motu setup and trash the 001? 2. get the motu setup and run both on diferent extension sets?

[Kasper]

dcornutt-
I must say, what a great post!

To the point and tons of info, as well as rational opinions.
This is the DUC at it's best.
Seems lately a lot of angry and/or uninformed posts have been popping up on the DUC. Nice to see one like this.
Bravo ! and very cool ! [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img]
Thanks for taking the time to post at such length.

kasper

[dcornutt]

Drenched, Yes..you can just run different extensions sets. BUT..make sure and drag all the OMS and DAE digi stuff out..as this doesn't show up in your extensions manager.

Running OMS and Freemidi together is not good...and can corrupt one or both preferences.

Kasper ..thanks for the kind words [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

dcornutt

[Zeus]

It's the same thing with Performer as with Logic : you can't do precise multitrack editing easily because you must open a separate window for audio region tweaking. Ugh, terrible! [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

Motu promises this will be fixed with 3.0 of Performer...Yeah, and then Performer will have groups also... [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] (Jesus, how could DP users have managed without that kind of absolutely BASIC feature...?)

I have tried to use Performer for midi but it has been with a lot's of problems...Not having midi input working and so on...

Z

[AEW]

dcornutt
That was great it should be expressed in a audio mag. It made me want to sell my mix plus and buy DP. I really didn't think DP was that good until the intro of version 3.
How would you compare new Lobic to DP 3?

Nick

[cane]

Dcornutt.
I agree with AEW, you should write for an audio mag.
what a sensational post!
respect for having the patience to write at such length in such detail.
top marks young jedi!
[img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

[Mark Dann]

I have owned a 2" 24-trk machine-based studio for many years. Also adats, and the like. After using SDII and an AMII card for most of the early 90's to do 2-trk editing and pre-mastering, I bought a PTIII TDM system to replace SDII and the AMII during the mid-90's. I used that for several years as well. Then one day I bought a motu 2408, so that I could do adat editing. A little bit prior to that, I also sold my PTIII system and replaced it with an AMII card with PTle, which was an improvement (24-bit, etc) for my 2-trk editing work. Now that I had the (then) current offerings of both digi and motu, I went about comparing them.

We all know what was missing/taken out of ptle so as to not endanger tdm sales, so I won't go into that here. My initial test was to test plugin (cpu load) performance. So I loaded up two g4s, one with ptle and it's hardware, and the other with DP & the 2408. I set up identical files, a 16-bit dat editing session. I used plugins common to both systems (Waves Q10, L1, etc.). The results were astounding.

I found that no matter how many q10s (or any plugin I tested) I could open in the ptle system, I could open DOUBLE the amount on the dp/2408 system. For example, if I could open 6 q10s on ptle, I could open 12 on dp. My "limit" criteria was, how many plugs could I have RUNNING while the transport would still PLAY. You can draw your own conclusions as to the what and why of PTLEs poor showing in this test.

I was used to PT editing. DP made me feel like I had forgotton everything, at first. But you know what? That was just the usual scenerio of switching software programs, like going from MS Word to MacWrite or Word Perfect. After living with the manual and using it constantly, I got faster on dp than I ever was on pt. I think it is universal that once people get used to their software, changing to something else is slow and painful, and makes them think the "new" software in question is perhaps not as good, not as fast, not as easy, etc. It's a bit like the old Vision/Performer/Logic/Cubase sequencer wars of not that many years ago. Once a user got used to ANY of those programs, they could seemingly never get up to speed on any of the others, and defended their choice as the best, and branded the "other" as inferior".

Today, I run DP 10-14 hours a day in my studio. It is hooked up to 3 alesis m20 machines, which not only give me dead-on locked transfers for clients, but their 24-bit convertors are top notch. So, curtesy of alesis and the 3 lightpipe connectors on the 2408, I have 24 channels of 24-bit i/o, in and out. How much are 3 888's again?

I also bought their 308 interface, which gives me another 24 channels of digital i/o (8 channels of aes/ebu, 8 of toslink/optical, and 8 of coax/rca), so I have my 2 lex 300's, my apogee psx100's (2-trk convertors), dat/cd players, masterlink, PodPro, all hooked up DIRECTLY (and digitally) to my system.

I also bought the new 828 firewire interface, which not only allows me to run any of my sessions on my powerbook, but also allows me to record anew on my powerbook any time or place I want. And, if I am doing a 44.1 session, I can switch to Apple's powermanager and play the session back WITHOUT any interface connected at all (I can edit on the subway if I wish, with nothing but the powerbook and a pair of headphones). In a pinch (on a gig maybe), I can also record with no interface, just using the jack in the back of the powerbook. Not a great sound off that jack, but the option is there. I can also plug the firewire interface into my other g4, and fly a session from the main room over ethernet, and go right to work on my "2nd" machine. Look ma, no pci card!

Someone said that they felt that dp was more for composers, and less suited for audio editing work. I don't compose at all. I am a commercial studio owner and engineer/producer/muscian. All I do is audio editing, lol! I can tell you that while some editing moves are easier in pt, some are easier in dp as well. I could go into a long list, but this post is already long enough. I still use PT on a regular basis for my 2-trk editing (old habits die hard), so I have not "forgotten" how to use PT. My point here is that, as a constant user of both systems, I would NOT give the nod to PT as the "easier" of the two systems for audio editing. It is more than possible to fly on both, it's more a matter of what you are used to. I editing audio in DP everyday, and do not ever wish it was PT on the screen instead because of some 2nd rate or missing feature. Enough said.

My dual 800 G4 is on order. It should give me 3 times the power of the single 500 I have been using for the past 1.5 years. On my g4/500, I can do full blown mixes, with lots of tracks and plugins. I never compare my system to a 011/ptle system. I compare it to a TDM system (in terms of the ability to put up a mix and actually MIX). I have 24 channels of 24-bit i/o, and another 24 of digital i/o. I have adat lock. And I mean LOCK. To get a system like what I use everyday from digi would cost me at least 14k, and that is assuming that I still use my adat m20's as convertors. If I take them out of the equation, then the 3 888's would cost me the better part of 9-10k by themselves. With my dual 800, it will smoke any tdm system except a mega-card one. And you know what they cost. My cost? A 2408, a 308, and the dp upgrade from the original 2408 software (AudioDesk). Do I feel like I am using inferior software as a price trade-off? Not in the slightest. DP is not (initially) as intuaitve, yes. But it's all there. Read the manual.

The original poster asked how these two compare. Seeing as no one has my perspective, I thought I would offer it. I'm not looking for a debate or to piss off anyone. This is my experience, and I'm sticking by it!